That's why there is rhyme. People make less mistakes that way. There would still be some though.
Buy on AliExpress.com
About honor killings (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
Buy on AliExpress.com
Qur'an so called errors to maintain the rhyme aren't in any sort of way grammatical ones as those words are read the way they used to read in the prophet's time and is to this day preferably read the same way but to say that those are grammatical fatal errors, you are wrong. As reading those words as they should be won't change the meaning, it would only change the rhyme. Unless you think rhyming changes the whole output 
Thats a free download if you are interested. Read it when you have the time (or read sections of it) It is extremely interesting and informative.
http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/theology_occultism/east_religion/quran-in-its-historical-context.html
How the fuck did you come up with this conclusion? Arabs at that time and even before Islam came were known to be masters of Arabic, they used to held monthly poetry festivals which are considered legendary till this day, they used to speak with such a high level Arabic that some of their "chats" needs an Arabic professor to decode them sometimes.
And to say that the Qur'an is made of hebrew and Persian words, really
The ones you're talking about who actually accused him of being taught by a foreigners were the ones who later on became Muslims and great ones at that, conquering both the Persian and Roman empires.It is a well known fact to muslims that Qur'an, Bible and Tourat (the jew book) are all God's books but they simply were manipulated by the latter governments to serve their purposes so I really can't see what's wrong with Qur'an having similar stories to those.
As for Alexander the great, he was never mentioned in Qur'an but rather some claimed he was in fact "Ze Al Karnain" mentioned in Qur'an but that is a week interpretation. A very week one at that, as Alexander the great, as it is well kown claimed he was God. While Ze Al Karnain in Qur'an is said to be one great believer in God.
It doesn't get more obvious than that.
grammatical errors according to whom? whose standard? sibwaiyh(who's not evfen arab)?
and the only acceptable philology of the qur'an for muslims is in the context of the hadith.
once again clutching at straws, recitations doesnt alter meaning nor tashkeel, you wrote extensively about what is at the most a minute detail that doesnt even pertain to meaning.
what field is that exactly? and if its plagiarizing how come the discrepancy of ismael and isaac, moreover moses sister is miriam, and i challenge you to find a verse in the quran that mentions Alexander.
and the only acceptable philology of the qur'an for muslims is in the context of the hadith.
once again clutching at straws, recitations doesnt alter meaning nor tashkeel, you wrote extensively about what is at the most a minute detail that doesnt even pertain to meaning.
what field is that exactly? and if its plagiarizing how come the discrepancy of ismael and isaac, moreover moses sister is miriam, and i challenge you to find a verse in the quran that mentions Alexander.
He wasn't the one doing the memorizing. The Quran did not come down in one shot.. it was recited a few verses at a time.. verses that were relevant to the situation they were in at the time. For example, Surat el Kahf (The cave) speaks of Dhul-Qarnayn, the 7 sleepers and the Soul..
The Sura was revealed when a few men were sent by Rabbis to Test Mohammed.. they asked him about these 3 things (Alexander legend was well known at the time.. they asked him who he was).. the prophet was not able to answer their question for about 14 days if I remember correctly and then he came back with Sura al kahf. The reason why he didnt have the answer rightaway is because he forgot to say Inshallah and just said that he will get the answer and so God didnt reveal it to him except late. (In other words he went searching).
About Dhul Qanrayn.. he gave them the Alexander romance account... and about the seven sleepers he gave them the Christianized version account that was later proven to be unorthodox (check the catholic church library online) and about the soul he said that he doesn't know.. he only knows that its from God and he says whats revealed to him.
The prophet did not have to memorize the Quran.. there were people called Hafaza (memorize-rs) that had this job. Multiple Hadiths show that there is missing verses particularly from surat el Ahzab as most of its memorizers were killed in a battle called el Yammama.
The Sura was revealed when a few men were sent by Rabbis to Test Mohammed.. they asked him about these 3 things (Alexander legend was well known at the time.. they asked him who he was).. the prophet was not able to answer their question for about 14 days if I remember correctly and then he came back with Sura al kahf. The reason why he didnt have the answer rightaway is because he forgot to say Inshallah and just said that he will get the answer and so God didnt reveal it to him except late. (In other words he went searching).
About Dhul Qanrayn.. he gave them the Alexander romance account... and about the seven sleepers he gave them the Christianized version account that was later proven to be unorthodox (check the catholic church library online) and about the soul he said that he doesn't know.. he only knows that its from God and he says whats revealed to him.
The prophet did not have to memorize the Quran.. there were people called Hafaza (memorize-rs) that had this job. Multiple Hadiths show that there is missing verses particularly from surat el Ahzab as most of its memorizers were killed in a battle called el Yammama.
Till this day thousands of muslim memorize the Qur'an as a whole with everything. they are put into contests where they are given the number of the "Aya" and they'll continue reading from there till they're asked to stop. So no, it's not something extra ordinary, although it aint easy either.
I have in fact three mates of mine in college who memorized the whole thing and finished it after 7 years when they were 16. So that's the simplest of matters Muhammed was asked to do, why are you making such a drama out of it. Beats me.
Even that didn't change the meaning now did it? As from a grammatical point of view, both alf wa noon and ya2 wa noon are used for mothana and such "errors" were too easy to notice by anyone having the slightest knowledge of Arabic so I wouldn't call them errors but rather changes in reading to make it easier to memorize while keeping the same meaning.
In Muhammed case as well, Qur'an took 20 years to be completed. It didn't fall into his memory in one night 7, Im sure you would have known that had you, like IZ, bothered to read on the subject.
Almost every night on the course of 20 years he was told parts of the Qur'an and he memorized just that in every day of those.
I have in fact three mates of mine in college who memorized the whole thing and finished it after 7 years when they were 16. So that's the simplest of matters Muhammed was asked to do, why are you making such a drama out of it. Beats me.
Even that didn't change the meaning now did it? As from a grammatical point of view, both alf wa noon and ya2 wa noon are used for mothana and such "errors" were too easy to notice by anyone having the slightest knowledge of Arabic so I wouldn't call them errors but rather changes in reading to make it easier to memorize while keeping the same meaning.
In Muhammed case as well, Qur'an took 20 years to be completed. It didn't fall into his memory in one night 7, Im sure you would have known that had you, like IZ, bothered to read on the subject.
Almost every night on the course of 20 years he was told parts of the Qur'an and he memorized just that in every day of those.
All right. I was merely replying to JBF's post which seemed odd, to say the least.
Anyway, I know far too little about Islam or, better yet, religion in general to debate about it. So I won't.
Bottom line: every one is free to believe in what he or she wants to, as long as you don't "hurt" other people due to those beliefs.
But I do think that everyone should take "their book" with a grain of salt. Actually, make it a truckload of salt.
Edit @ JBF: I did not say it was impossible, even though it does seem like that. If you study a book for many years I'm sure you can remember it, since you can go over the text many, many times. However if someone "says" something to you, remembering that exact same thing becomes a lot more difficult.
Anyway, I know far too little about Islam or, better yet, religion in general to debate about it. So I won't.
Bottom line: every one is free to believe in what he or she wants to, as long as you don't "hurt" other people due to those beliefs.
But I do think that everyone should take "their book" with a grain of salt. Actually, make it a truckload of salt.
Edit @ JBF: I did not say it was impossible, even though it does seem like that. If you study a book for many years I'm sure you can remember it, since you can go over the text many, many times. However if someone "says" something to you, remembering that exact same thing becomes a lot more difficult.
What does all this has to do with Buck's post, beats me.
Check my reply at the first paragraph please. As for the 2nd one, at the prophet not having to memorize the Qur'an, seriously dude are you on drugs or what? He's the source of the Qur'an and it's his readings that was typed to what Qur'an is these days. Don't talk BS paaaaalease!
As for missing verses in Qur'an due to the killing of some of Muhammed's companions, another facepalm is deserved there since its' a well known fact that Qur'an was written before that rebellion started and that at Abu Backer's era only the stones, palm leaves and animal's skins parts that were used to write down the Qur'an upon, were gathered and copied to paper as the Qur'an we know these days.
Check my reply at the first paragraph please. As for the 2nd one,
at the prophet not having to memorize the Qur'an, seriously dude are you on drugs or what? He's the source of the Qur'an and it's his readings that was typed to what Qur'an is these days. Don't talk BS paaaaalease! As for missing verses in Qur'an due to the killing of some of Muhammed's companions, another facepalm is deserved there since its' a well known fact that Qur'an was written before that rebellion started and that at Abu Backer's era only the stones, palm leaves and animal's skins parts that were used to write down the Qur'an upon, were gathered and copied to paper as the Qur'an we know these days.
I hope he does but he doesn't seem to.
And I respect you for acknowledging that rather than go into a debate knowing shit and claiming the exact opposite.
I've never said it was easy man, in fact many rate Muhammed as a genius not only muslims but many others as the way he built the nation out of defeated scattered arabs and the way he made them what would soon become (at that time) the most powerful nation destroying the two leading ones, Persian and Roman ones, is certainly something worth admiring to say the least when you recall that arabs were the joke of the world at that time laughed at for their continuous fighting to each other and killing while the Persians and Romans held them by the throat as puppets.
And I respect you for acknowledging that rather than go into a debate knowing shit and claiming the exact opposite.
I've never said it was easy man, in fact many rate Muhammed as a genius not only muslims but many others as the way he built the nation out of defeated scattered arabs and the way he made them what would soon become (at that time) the most powerful nation destroying the two leading ones, Persian and Roman ones, is certainly something worth admiring to say the least when you recall that arabs were the joke of the world at that time laughed at for their continuous fighting to each other and killing while the Persians and Romans held them by the throat as puppets.
I gave you a link for the book.. download it and read if you want real details.. I am no philologist.
But generally,1) The Philology of the Quran for Muslims is faith based and already assumes divine inspiration and doesn't venture unbiasedly. The Christian Bible passed through the same phase before they created a critical version of it. The book i gave a link to itself calls for collecting and creating a critical version of the Quran like what happened with the bible in tracing its history.
2) Recitations as in "Tilawat" does not alter in meaning but readings as in "Qira'at" does because they are different words all together as the Dots on letters that differentiate (not the little symbols) the letters are non-existent. Under rasm, the arabic alphabet is only 18 letters out of the 28 we have today.
3) I said it Mixed up both mariams/marys. The family of Omran in the old testament is composed of Moses (The prophet), Haroon (cant recall his non-arabic name), Mary (an insignificant sister) and their father Omran.
In the Quran the Family of Omran is composed of Moses (not the prophet), Haroon, Mary (Jesus's virgin mother) and her father Omran.
4) Dhul Qarnayn... do some research and see for yourself. Also read surat el kahf (the cave) you'll see the wording is that They ask the prophet about Dhul Qarnayn and the 7 sleepers. He was replying to their questions about people they already heard legends of.
I advise you to read the book I posted... I am not presenting it as it deserves... the book is not about that in the first place.. its not a "lets bash the Quran!" book at all. It discusses, 1. Quranic Origins: Manuscript Evidence
2. Quranic Origins: Historical Evidence
3. The Quran and Earlier Religious Tradition
4. The Quran as Literature
5. The Quran and Historical Linguistics
Its a book that came out from a conference in The University of Notredam.. a collection of lectures.
There is the link again..
http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/theology_occultism/east_religion/quran-in-its-historical-context.html
Oh... there is also Incredible similarity between the Fake Infancy Gospel's account of Jesus's childhood and the Quranic account. Coincidentally, the Infancy Gospel was in Syriac, the alexander romance was in syriac
But generally,1) The Philology of the Quran for Muslims is faith based and already assumes divine inspiration and doesn't venture unbiasedly. The Christian Bible passed through the same phase before they created a critical version of it. The book i gave a link to itself calls for collecting and creating a critical version of the Quran like what happened with the bible in tracing its history.
2) Recitations as in "Tilawat" does not alter in meaning but readings as in "Qira'at" does because they are different words all together as the Dots on letters that differentiate (not the little symbols) the letters are non-existent. Under rasm, the arabic alphabet is only 18 letters out of the 28 we have today.
3) I said it Mixed up both mariams/marys. The family of Omran in the old testament is composed of Moses (The prophet), Haroon (cant recall his non-arabic name), Mary (an insignificant sister) and their father Omran.
In the Quran the Family of Omran is composed of Moses (not the prophet), Haroon, Mary (Jesus's virgin mother) and her father Omran.
4) Dhul Qarnayn... do some research and see for yourself. Also read surat el kahf (the cave) you'll see the wording is that They ask the prophet about Dhul Qarnayn and the 7 sleepers. He was replying to their questions about people they already heard legends of.
I advise you to read the book I posted... I am not presenting it as it deserves... the book is not about that in the first place.. its not a "lets bash the Quran!" book at all. It discusses, 1. Quranic Origins: Manuscript Evidence
2. Quranic Origins: Historical Evidence
3. The Quran and Earlier Religious Tradition
4. The Quran as Literature
5. The Quran and Historical Linguistics
Its a book that came out from a conference in The University of Notredam.. a collection of lectures.
There is the link again..
http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/theology_occultism/east_religion/quran-in-its-historical-context.html
Oh... there is also Incredible similarity between the Fake Infancy Gospel's account of Jesus's childhood and the Quranic account. Coincidentally, the Infancy Gospel was in Syriac, the alexander romance was in syriac
do you know how many acceptable qiraats there are? and moses' sister' name was never mentioned in the quran. as for dul qarnain(who i fail to recognize as alexander) could just as easily be cyrus or any assyrian king. Show me historical evidence i dont care what you or any orientalist concoct. And this incredible similarity that you speak of is not even as incredible with the similarity of other lost gospels yet i still dont see what you re getting at because and you both kno that whatever explanation you or any other will come up with will be in the realm of the comical. once again show me historical evidence. otherwise stop talking about this as it is offtopic.
thats a good word I like 
I said wasn't, as in past tense.
Does it say these is the Qur'an or are there other historical sources with regard to the early years of the faith?
If you are using the Qur'an as evidence on the Qur'an I think you're the one that is clueless pal. I suggest you read up on basic logic before you get yourself into this debate.
Does it say these is the Qur'an or are there other historical sources with regard to the early years of the faith?
If you are using the Qur'an as evidence on the Qur'an I think you're the one that is clueless pal. I suggest you read up on basic logic before you get yourself into this debate.
