You're going to hell if you __________ (2 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

Perhaps. But then psychoanalysis tells us not to trust the motives people say they have. One because they are not necessarily honest. Two because they may not even themselves know.



What conspiracy? Who's conspiring against whom?

You're trying to argue that there is an evil behind people having pets. Even if some adore the power behind owning a pet (which is frankly stupid to begin with), there are millions of people who treat their pets well and just love having an animal to take care of.

It's like you're promoting a whole conspiracy that pet ownership is evil, like the 2012 Doomsday Planet X sending millions of Aliens to earth in an agreement by world governments with the Illuminati.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Martin]

The claim that apostates are killed is wrong and is not what the Quran says.
It contradicts with the Quran and the Sunna....
did muslims kill many many people for rejecting islam after being followers? Yes.. Many Many... i can even give you an official statement made by the Azhar (islamic law institute) in the 1700's on a case of a man who was a muslim and converted to christianity when he married a german christian woman. The islamic court said he should be killed and his 3 children will have to grow up into adults.. if they are muslims they live.. if not.. they die.

Different sects of Islam promote different charges to apostasy.. NONE of them is supported from the Quran or Hadith...
check this out they say it best: (get to the second part)
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...nglish-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar

Okay, but forget these "subversives". What are the regulations according to "true" islam for leaving the faith? You say they are not supposed to be murdered. Good start. But I still have reservations at this point as you might imagine.

 

[Martin]

You're trying to argue that there is an evil behind people having pets.

Now that Bush is gone maybe we should stop talking in terms of good and evil as if we're trapped in a fairy tale. I did not say it was evil.

Even if some adore the power behind owning a pet (which is frankly stupid to begin with), there are millions of people who treat their pets well and just love having an animal to take care of.

In no way does this dispute my thesis. You said exactly what Someone did earlier. We are told treat our wives with respect yadayadayada. And yet the wife is expected to obey the husband => benevolent dictator is still a dictator.

It's like you're promoting a whole conspiracy that pet ownership is evil, like the 2012 Doomsday Planet X sending millions of Aliens to earth in an agreement by world governments with the Illuminati.

Please..

 

[Il Re]

Yes, right here.

"Rules regarding Muslim women's (and men's) attire are derived from the Quran, Islam's revealed text, and the traditions (hadith) of the 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). In the Quran, God states: "Say to 
the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their 
modesty...And say to the believing women that they should lower their 
gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty 
and adornments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they 
should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty 
except to their husbands, their fathers...(a list of exceptions)" 
[Chapter 24, verses 30-31] Also, "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and 
daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer 
garments over their persons...that they should be known and not 
molested." [Chapter 33, verse 59]

those are not reasons, this guy explains some of the reasons

 

[Bjerknes]

Now that Bush is gone maybe we should stop talking in terms of good and evil as if we're trapped in a fairy tale. I did not say it was evil.

In no way does this dispute my thesis. You said exactly what Someone did earlier. We are told treat our wives with respect yadayadayada. And yet the wife is expected to obey the husband => benevolent dictator is still a dictator.

Please..

So you believe that the only reason behind having a pet is because people want to go on a power trip? Is that right?

Have you even owned a pet yourself?

I mean seriously, this stuff is foolish. Some people treat their pets better than themselves.

 

[Hist]

Not molested? I love phrases like this. So in other words women should cover up their bodies because our men are such uncivilized animals that they will otherwise molest the women.

come to egypt and see for yourself... YOU will be molested let alone women..
Women wearing the big black ugly TENTS on them are molested and harassed.. ask any female of the sexual harrassment she gets in egypt ksa or anywhere in the arab world with the exception of dubai and Qatar and UAE..
you expect too much as men... people here are uncivilized like you couldnt imagine... i am thought of as a heretic because i study philosophy..
its worse than you can ever imagine.. take a trip to egypt and be my guest..

Okay, good. So if this is what you think, do you believe these are the unalterable rules handed down by god :blahblah: ?

we have something called Fatwa that comes out from Azhar... it is obvious we cannot apply rules of people who ride camels and live in tents on people who ride cars and airplanes... its a different age.. different traditions.. everything changes... the basic stuff is what is unchangeable.... Not every muslim preacher will tell you women shoud wear the black tents and men should wear jalabeya and have long beards.. google Amr Khaled.. he is the "modern" preacher lol and is infact the most popular nowadays.
Fatwa's are changes in the Islamic law... The apostasy charge that used to get people killed was recently revoked and changed. (took shit loads of guts for the Mufti to alter it as corruption is everywhere) People have been preaching against it for years... sadly the ones in power did not agree on the change untill recently.

Women rights are tougher to change as the middle east is a Male dominant society in a way worse than you can imagine..
its going to need a lot of time till a Fatwa is issued on this matter.


good night

 

[Bjerknes]

those are not reasons, this guy explains some of the reasons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXC4uHxbpCU

In my opinion, this is frankly nonsense. God created women and their figures, but then he wants them to cover up their own beauty. Doesn't that sound idiotic to you?

 

[Elvin]

Listen, if you don't like religions go to hell... I heard there aren't many believers down there.

 

[Martin]

So you believe that the only reason behind having a pet is because people want to go on a power trip? Is that right?

In a way, yes. What I'm saying is that this instinct to take care of and nurture etc, at some level is about control and domination. You can't nurture someone/something that won't let you. But with a pet you're always in control (also depends a bit on the animal, the smaller and more delicate it is the more you control it).

Like imagine if you had a girlfriend and you kept saying to her I want to protect you, I want to take care of you etc etc. Don't you think at some point she might think "hey, wait a minute. I'm not a helpless creature, I can take care of myself, stop being so overprotective"? That's never gonna happen with a dog, is it? And you know that very well when you get a dog.

So is this in some sense immoral? I don't know. To the extent that it produces a positive end result, it's hard to argue that it's somehow wrong. But what I think it does show is that you have this urge to be in control.

Have you even owned a pet yourself?

No. Feel free to infer from that what you want. But if you run the fox news play on me "anything they say is automatically false because they are fox news" I'll be a little disappointed in you.

 

[Hist]

Okay, but forget these "subversives". What are the regulations according to "true" islam for leaving the faith? You say they are not supposed to be murdered. Good start. But I still have reservations at this point as you might imagine.

read the link i gave you... it gives you the support from the Quran of what i am saying and against what the sharia law used to be (read to the end after the history BS)... it like everything else get corrupted too.

look through the other topics.. see what you find interesting they answer almost all questions.. i do not agree on everything they say but this website is the most open minded constructive one i have found online so far... look through these as i am gonna sleep... its an endless list... dont use the search option as it sucks for me (i cant work it for some reason)
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...Online-English-Ask_Scholar/Page/FatwaCounselE



goodnight

 

[Martin]

come to egypt and see for yourself... YOU will be molested let alone women..
Women wearing the big black ugly TENTS on them are molested and harassed.. ask any female of the sexual harrassment she gets in egypt ksa or anywhere in the arab world with the exception of dubai and Qatar and UAE..
you expect too much as men... people here are uncivilized like you couldnt imagine... i am thought of as a heretic because i study philosophy..
its worse than you can ever imagine.. take a trip to egypt and be my guest..




we have something called Fatwa that comes out from Azhar... it is obvious we cannot apply rules of people who ride camels and live in tents on people who ride cars and airplanes... its a different age.. different traditions.. everything changes... the basic stuff is what is unchangeable.... Not every muslim preacher will tell you women shoud wear the black tents and men should wear jalabeya and have long beards.. google Amr Khaled.. he is the "modern" preacher lol and is infact the most popular nowadays.
Fatwa's are changes in the Islamic law... The apostasy charge that used to get people killed was recently revoked and changed. (took shit loads of guts for the Mufti to alter it as corruption is everywhere) People have been preaching against it for years... sadly the ones in power did not agree on the change untill recently.

Women rights are tougher to change as the middle east is a Male dominant society in a way worse than you can imagine..
its going to need a lot of time till a Fatwa is issued on this matter.


good night

You are a breath of fresh air, sir.

 

[Bjerknes]

In a way, yes. What I'm saying is that this instinct to take care of and nurture etc, at some level is about control and domination. You can't nurture someone/something that won't let you. But with a pet you're always in control (also depends a bit on the animal, the smaller and more delicate it is the more you control it).

Like imagine if you had a girlfriend and you kept saying to her I want to protect you, I want to take care of you etc etc. Don't you think at some point she might think "hey, wait a minute. I'm not a helpless creature, I can take care of myself, stop being so overprotective"? That's never gonna happen with a dog, is it? And you know that very well when you get a dog.

So is this in some sense immoral? I don't know. To the extent that it produces a positive end result, it's hard to argue that it's somehow wrong. But what I think it does show is that you have this urge to be in control.



No. Feel free to infer from that what you want. But if you run the fox news play on me "anything they say is automatically false because they are fox news" I'll be a little disappointed in you.

So the possibility that people just love animals is thrown out the window?

 

[Martin]

So the possibility that people just love animals is thrown out the window?

No, the two are not mutually exclusive. In fact I guess what I'm suggesting is that they are complimentary. So on the one hand you have this unconditional love for this organism that you want to express and if the animal/person rejects it then that's totally fine, they have their freedom. But is that really the truth? Cmon, it's not. The truth is you do love, but you also don't do this completely selflessly. You want it to be recognized, appreciated, you're doing this for yourself, it's a selfish motive. And in that, if possible, you seek some degree of control to make sure you get what you want.

 

[Martin]

those are not reasons, this guy explains some of the reasons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXC4uHxbpCU

Forgive me for going ab hominem but this guy doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. Just the way he talks and the way he phrases his sentences. It's like he's trying to personally justify something he doesn't really know the justification for.

 

[Il Re]

In my opinion, this is frankly nonsense. God created women and their figures, but then he wants them to cover up their own beauty. Doesn't that sound idiotic to you?

not really, the reasoning makes sense, being brought up in this day and age i'm not surprised you think it's nonsense, what was once normal is now strange and vice versa, doesn't make it right though, and it's part of the test, yes god also gave us freedom of will, doesn't mean that we should go and do bad things because of this, if you look at the pure reasonining of the hijaab, you cannot deny it's effective at fulfilling it's purpose

 

[Bjerknes]

No, the two are not mutually exclusive. In fact I guess what I'm suggesting is that they are complimentary. So on the one hand you have this unconditional love for this organism that you want to express and if the animal/person rejects it then that's totally fine, they have their freedom. But is that really the truth? Cmon, it's not. The truth is you do love, but you also don't do this completely selflessly. You want it to be recognized, appreciated, you're doing this for yourself, it's a selfish motive. And in that, if possible, you seek some degree of control to make sure you get what you want.

Very interesting/strange way of thinking. I've had various dogs before, became attached to all of them, but I didn't really feel the need to control them or have some sort of power over them. They were just a joy to have around, providing some company while guarding over the house. Taking care of an animal is not really about glorifying yourself because you're doing the right thing, but rather doing what needs to be done.

Having a pet just to feed a power trip is quite the cheap way to go, especially considering one can gain power over people by being a boss at a firm, or becoming a Congressman. What you are really making the case for is that anyone who isn't a boss or a Congressman is in fact a pet, so we should either strive to be one of those or reject the entire system.

 

[Bjerknes]

not really, the reasoning makes sense, being brought up in this day and age i'm not surprised you think it's nonsense, what was once normal is now strange and vice versa, doesn't make it right though, and it's part of the test, yes god also gave us freedom of will, doesn't mean that we should go and do bad things because of this, if you look at the pure reasonining of the hijaab, you cannot deny it's effective at fulfilling it's purpose

Oh, I most certainly can.

If God did exist, and created a woman to be what she is, with curves and beauty, then why didn't he also create her with a black cloak? Surely if God created men and women in his image, wouldn't that suggest that nature is meant to be and should be allowed to thrive, not covered up in an unnatural way?

It's like being born white and painting yourself black everyday because it's against your "religion" to be the way you are. It's foolish, very much so.

 

[Martin]

Having a pet just to feed a power trip

I think what's surprising you here is that yes I'm saying it's a power trip, but it doesn't mean you abuse your power. For instance I was the admin here for many years and to be honest I did like the feeling of being in control, it is a little exciting. Now I don't think I really abused my power, I mean let others judge and so forth, but at least I didn't have any complaints about it.

So to be in control just to do good, treat people well, that in itself is a situation where having power is a thrill. (Of course on a forum you spend so much time reprimanding people and reasoning with trolls to play by the rules that it's mostly about being a cop on the beat, but still.)

especially considering one can gain power over people by being a boss at a firm, or becoming a Congressman.

You can, but that takes so much more effort.

What you are really making the case for is that anyone who isn't a boss or a Congressman is in fact a pet

Here I don't follow you.

 

[Il Re]

Oh, I most certainly can.

If God did exist, and created a woman to be what she is, with curves and beauty, then why didn't he also create her with a black cloak? Surely if God created men and women in his image, wouldn't that suggest that nature is meant to be and should be allowed to thrive, not covered up in an unnatural way?

It's like being born white and painting yourself black everyday because it's against your "religion" to be the way you are. It's foolish, very much so.

you don't get it do you?

it's the CHOICE TO DO IT ANDY

god could have made us mindless beings with no choice who pray all the time, but we have the choice to pray, just as we have the choice to do anything

it's a TEST, doing the right thing isn't always the easy thing, it's in a guys nature to want to screw lots of girls, but it's a test not to

if we lived in an un natural way we would just have sex all the time and live lives of violence, what kind of argument is that? you think that would be better?

thing is andy, since you don't believe in god this is already irrelavant to you, that's why you don't seem to understand what i'm trying to get at

 

[Martin]

if we lived in an un natural way we would just have sex all the time and live lives of violence, what kind of argument is that? you think that would be better?

why would that be unnatural? how could it be unnatural to follow your natural urges?

(do I think the word "unnatural" is meaningless? yes.)