You're going to hell if you __________ (1 Viewer)

[Bjerknes]

It's strange how people of religion are so quick to condemn those who do not believe in a God. If you say you're an atheist, those of religion try to "save" you from eternal damnation by saying, "you will go to hell with your current beliefs. Come back to God."

But strangely enough, those who try to "save" you partake in fun that is against the rules of their own religion. And when atheists use the, "you're going to hell" argument against these hypocrites, they become offended.

Double standards anyone?

 

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[Nenz]

When did I say you're going to hell?

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

I'm gonna go to hell when I die.

 

[HelterSkelter]

Again Andy,you're talking about a specific set of religious extremists.You cant call something bad simply because some idiots,wether they are in the majority or the minority,end up tarnishing its reputation.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Damn Andy. Just a few years ago you were defending Catholicism on here and while you're perfectly entitled to change opinions I think you're being a bit of a hater right now. If religion is not for you anymore then by all means don't associate yourself with it but to turn around and poke at people who still do is a bit hypocritical.

 

[Il Re]

Damn Andy. Just a few years ago you were defending Catholicism on here and while you're perfectly entitled to change opinions I think you're being a bit of a hater right now. If religion is not for you anymore then by all means don't associate yourself with it but to turn around and poke at people who still do is a bit hypocritical.

yup

 

[Salvo]

to all there own if one wishes to believe let them no matter what reason they choose to beleive is. if they dont its there choice.

 

[Martin]

Damn Andy. Just a few years ago you were defending Catholicism on here and while you're perfectly entitled to change opinions I think you're being a bit of a hater right now. If religion is not for you anymore then by all means don't associate yourself with it but to turn around and poke at people who still do is a bit hypocritical.

You're right, but you don't realize how much you just incriminated yourself.

 

[Geof]

Again, and again and again.... the same points. Are there people out there using their religion to put fear and hate on those who don't follow the same faith? sure there are.

But the vast majority of religious people are practising their faith without judging anyone. Look at this forum, of all the religious people here how many of them have actually attacked an "atheist" member or a follower of another religion, just for the sake of his non belief? In fact, I witness far more atheist spilling hate and disdain upon religious people than the contrary.

Most religious communities acting in the society, I believe, are doing more good than bad. Social reinsertion programs, education, shelter, food etc. A lot of this tends to supplement the Stately programs when those fail or are not enough.

Those religious people threatening non believers with words like "sin", "hell", etc. are equally disapproved by the vast majority of the religious people and the atheists.

If you have valid points to make about religion, please go ahead. But please refrain from judging religion as it was only a group of wackos.

 

[Martin]

In fact, I witness far more atheist spilling hate and disdain upon religious people than the contrary.

You are missing the point. I for one do not attack religious people, just religious ideas. That is not, not Ibrahimovic, just the ball at his feet, if you will :wink:

And the advantage of attacking an idea is that you don't have to be quite so diplomatic about it. Ideas aren't people, they can (and should imo) be examined and prodded and they'll persevere if they're robust.

 

[HelterSkelter]

Again, and again and again.... the same points. Are there people out there using their religion to put fear and hate on those who don't follow the same faith? sure there are.

But the vast majority of religious people are practising their faith without judging anyone. Look at this forum, of all the religious people here how many of them have actually attacked an "atheist" member or a follower of another religion, just for the sake of his non belief? In fact, I witness far more atheist spilling hate and disdain upon religious people than the contrary.

Most religious communities acting in the society, I believe, are doing more good than bad. Social reinsertion programs, education, shelter, food etc. A lot of this tends to supplement the Stately programs when those fail or are not enough.

Those religious people threatening non believers with words like "sin", "hell", etc. are equally disapproved by the vast majority of the religious people and the atheists.

If you have valid points to make about religion, please go ahead. But please refrain from judging religion as it was only a group of wackos.

Top Post

 

[Geof]

You are missing the point. I for one do not attack religious people, just religious ideas. That is not, not Ibrahimovic, just the ball at his feet, if you will :wink:

And the advantage of attacking an idea is that you don't have to be quite so diplomatic about it. Ideas aren't people, they can (and should imo) be examined and prodded and they'll persevere if they're robust.

Well that's all right to me. I have absolutely no problem with discussing an idea or a belief. I won't personally be shocked if you come at it from a harsh angle.

However, Andy's opening post does not attack the idea; but rather extrapolates the behaviour of certain people to "religious people" in general. Which is absolutely wrong and, dare I say, idiotic.

 

[Martin]

Well that's all right to me. I have absolutely no problem with discussing an idea or a belief. I won't personally be shocked if you come at it from a harsh angle.

However, Andy's opening post does not attack the idea; but rather extrapolates the behaviour of certain people to "religious people" in general. Which is absolutely wrong and, dare I say, idiotic.

Unfortunately I can't take responsibility for Andy, I lost the remote control

 

[rounder]

I think Geof is spot on here.

 

[Enron]

The Dead Horse asked me to post this.

"Guys. Please stop. My back is killing me".

 

[Geof]

Unfortunately I can't take responsibility for Andy, I lost the remote control

see, you're like a God. You created something here that you can't control. Soon enough, Andy will start doubting your existence.

 

[Hist]

i posted this somewhere else but it applies here:
In both Christian and Islamic philosophy you will find intellectuals and philosophers who claim there is no relation between faith and reason, and philosophers who will claim there is a strong relation.
Let me take this piece by piece.
1) Those who believe there is no relation between faith and reason:
they will say that the causes and effects about the Godly order dramatically differs from one religion to another and hence cannot be understood or tested etc.

2) Those who do believe in the relation between faith and reason:

Examples of these will be Thomas Aquinas for Christians and Averroes (Ibn Rushd) AKA The Commentator for Muslims.

They will not claim that religion is based completely on reason but they will say that the many major aspects of religion can be found by the practicing of reasoning without the need of scripture.
They both are Aristotelian and they both are the greatest philosophers of their respective religions and if you read their books you will find that they more or less say same thing about faith and reason.
Using reason alone, they both arrived at the existence of God (i can supply their main proof) and that he must be all perfect, one and omnipotent.
See any of the 3 major religions is divided in to 2 parts.

------------------------
1) Gray Area
(must be accepted on faith from the authority of scripture (be it bible or Quran)
as it is impossible to judge in matters you can neither know nor understand as will be evident from the examples i will give.
Includes:
A) For Christians: The Trinity, crucifixion, resurrection,Miracles etc..
B) For Muslims: The None existence of the Trinity, The other story about the crucifixion, Miracles, Djin, Magic, Curses, corruption of the bible, judgment day etc..
Note: They try to use reason to explain these matters but they all admit that their description is never absolutely accurate as it is by definition unexplainable.
------------------------
2) Reasonable area
(can be known through philosophy ie. the use of the intellect without the need of resorting to scripture)
Includes:
The build up to God's existence etc. (Many philosophers who knew nothing about scripture arrived at God's existence)
Ethics etc.
This Part is more or less common to Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.
-------------------------

Now ask yourselves this:
Can you judge if Jesus was Crucified or not?
Can you say based on facts that he resurrected to the sky or not?
Can you prove That He is not God?
Can you Prove that any of the miracles in different scripture ever happened?
Can you know for sure if there was an angel called Gabriel who dictated scripture from God to the prophets or was it the holy spirit (a part of god)? Can we even say it exists or not?
These are all what we call the 3'aybeyat in Islam meaning Absences meaning they are abstract and cannot be proven to be true or false.. you just have to take them on faith in the authority of scripture NOT reason.
Then ask yourself this...
What makes me believe The Quran and not the Bible?
What makes you believe the Bible not the Quran?
why should i believe the 3'aybeyat of Islam and not Christianity

They both agree in many things but also disagree at many.
Followers of the bible condemn followers of the Quran to hell and vice versa.
How can We be judged on a choice of our religion when both religions have a grey area that cannot be reasoned and each claims to be true and condemns the other to hell. We take their words on authority.. but whose authority? on books' authority (Quran and bible) but which book?
The 3'aybeyat (absences) by definition cannot be known for sure how can God condemn me to hell by choosing a side rather than the other when there is no reason i could judge upon to choose one over the other.


This is like putting a 10 year old kid in an advanced physics exam.
The exam is only 1 question and he has 2 answers to choose from. Some tell the kid to choose answer A and others tell him to choose answer B.
He asks: "why would i choose this and not that"
their answer is "You must choose based on our authority"
he asks: why would i trust your authority and not the other"
the answer is "because if you trust the wrong group you will fail the exam"
the kid asks "how can i know which answer is true i don't know physics"
They answer "follow your heart"

Lol we can be thrown in eternal fire because our heart made the wrong choice. A matter of luck a Russian roulette game where either you go to HEAVEN or HELL.
Anyway, i had to say this to make you understand the back ground i am speaking from.
if you wish to go beyond the scripture's authority you have to be dead and see for yourself (you cant be the stock analyst here) .. Not even the POPE knows exactly what the gray area is.

In conclusion, I do not believe that belief in particular abstract matters are what determines whether i'll go to heaven or hell. I am basing this on the idea that God is infinitely just and that is what i see as justice.
i see it (thats my personal opinion) that The main reason Jesus, Mohammed, moses and all the likes came here is to be good role models to shows us and guide us how to live righteously. Teach us about ethics and wisdom. I don't really care if they are fake or no i just take their ideas and make use of it.
I dont care if jesus was god or just a profit. What i do know that the stories (be them true or false) have a good purpose and a good message. I make use of them to live better. Thats what i believe we will be judged upon. Thats what i see as justice. I cannot back my opinion up by neither islamic nor christian scripture thats the weak point in my argument.

 

[.zero]

andrew, in the wise words of the great papa wu:

"...heaven is what you make of it, and hell is what you go through"

 

[Cronios]

Andy is right though, those certain ppl are hypocrites.
As far as i can tell, in this particular post, he didnt accused of any one else, but them.
If he use this argument to blame more ppl, then he can be condemned, but not yet.

Every man has the right to go to hell. Whats wrong about that?
The free will is sacred and respected from almost every religion!

Some sensitive and pitiful people, do believe that they can actually make a difference
and out of compassion, they are trying to save more...
They are weak and pathetic, let them burn in hell!!:evil:

PS Rumors have it, that Burke will bring along ( in Hell) some hot/nasty Hungarian porn stars
and a lot of cold bear...

 

[Martin]

i posted this somewhere else but it applies here:
In both Christian and Islamic philosophy you will find intellectuals and philosophers who claim there is no relation between faith and reason, and philosophers who will claim there is a strong relation.
Let me take this piece by piece.
1) Those who believe there is no relation between faith and reason:
they will say that the causes and effects about the Godly order dramatically differs from one religion to another and hence cannot be understood or tested etc.

2) Those who do believe in the relation between faith and reason:

Examples of these will be Thomas Aquinas for Christians and Averroes (Ibn Rushd) AKA The Commentator for Muslims.

They will not claim that religion is based completely on reason but they will say that the many major aspects of religion can be found by the practicing of reasoning without the need of scripture.
They both are Aristotelian and they both are the greatest philosophers of their respective religions and if you read their books you will find that they more or less say same thing about faith and reason.
Using reason alone, they both arrived at the existence of God (i can supply their main proof) and that he must be all perfect, one and omnipotent.
See any of the 3 major religions is divided in to 2 parts.

------------------------
1) Gray Area
(must be accepted on faith from the authority of scripture (be it bible or Quran)
as it is impossible to judge in matters you can neither know nor understand as will be evident from the examples i will give.
Includes:
A) For Christians: The Trinity, crucifixion, resurrection,Miracles etc..
B) For Muslims: The None existence of the Trinity, The other story about the crucifixion, Miracles, Djin, Magic, Curses, corruption of the bible, judgment day etc..
Note: They try to use reason to explain these matters but they all admit that their description is never absolutely accurate as it is by definition unexplainable.
------------------------
2) Reasonable area
(can be known through philosophy ie. the use of the intellect without the need of resorting to scripture)
Includes:
The build up to God's existence etc. (Many philosophers who knew nothing about scripture arrived at God's existence)
Ethics etc.
This Part is more or less common to Jews, Christians and Muslims alike.
-------------------------

Now ask yourselves this:
Can you judge if Jesus was Crucified or not?
Can you say based on facts that he resurrected to the sky or not?
Can you prove That He is not God?
Can you Prove that any of the miracles in different scripture ever happened?
Can you know for sure if there was an angel called Gabriel who dictated scripture from God to the prophets or was it the holy spirit (a part of god)? Can we even say it exists or not?
These are all what we call the 3'aybeyat in Islam meaning Absences meaning they are abstract and cannot be proven to be true or false.. you just have to take them on faith in the authority of scripture NOT reason.
Then ask yourself this...
What makes me believe The Quran and not the Bible?
What makes you believe the Bible not the Quran?
why should i believe the 3'aybeyat of Islam and not Christianity

They both agree in many things but also disagree at many.
Followers of the bible condemn followers of the Quran to hell and vice versa.
How can We be judged on a choice of our religion when both religions have a grey area that cannot be reasoned and each claims to be true and condemns the other to hell. We take their words on authority.. but whose authority? on books' authority (Quran and bible) but which book?
The 3'aybeyat (absences) by definition cannot be known for sure how can God condemn me to hell by choosing a side rather than the other when there is no reason i could judge upon to choose one over the other.


This is like putting a 10 year old kid in an advanced physics exam.
The exam is only 1 question and he has 2 answers to choose from. Some tell the kid to choose answer A and others tell him to choose answer B.
He asks: "why would i choose this and not that"
their answer is "You must choose based on our authority"
he asks: why would i trust your authority and not the other"
the answer is "because if you trust the wrong group you will fail the exam"
the kid asks "how can i know which answer is true i don't know physics"
They answer "follow your heart"

Lol we can be thrown in eternal fire because our heart made the wrong choice. A matter of luck a Russian roulette game where either you go to HEAVEN or HELL.
Anyway, i had to say this to make you understand the back ground i am speaking from.
if you wish to go beyond the scripture's authority you have to be dead and see for yourself (you cant be the stock analyst here) .. Not even the POPE knows exactly what the gray area is.

In conclusion, I do not believe that belief in particular abstract matters are what determines whether i'll go to heaven or hell. I am basing this on the idea that God is infinitely just and that is what i see as justice.
i see it (thats my personal opinion) that The main reason Jesus, Mohammed, moses and all the likes came here is to be good role models to shows us and guide us how to live righteously. Teach us about ethics and wisdom. I don't really care if they are fake or no i just take their ideas and make use of it.
I dont care if jesus was god or just a profit. What i do know that the stories (be them true or false) have a good purpose and a good message. I make use of them to live better. Thats what i believe we will be judged upon. Thats what i see as justice. I cannot back my opinion up by neither islamic nor christian scripture thats the weak point in my argument.

Two points come to mind.

1) Does it matter whether religion is true? If not, then it's really just another fairy tale, a piece of fiction. In which case it makes a pretty awful justification for why anyone should take the insight it has and build their life around it.

2) If you recognize that Jesus and Mohammed were good role models, that means you have a moral compass within you with which to make that determination. In other words, these stories are not telling you anything you didn't already know. So again, what's the big revelation?