You're going to hell if you __________ (2 Viewers)

[Hist]

Religion is thousand of years old.. alterations to it exist on day to day basis so you can never know for sure if what we have now is god's words or advice..
If it was true, then it is inspired by God and corrupted by man. I use my moral compass to know what a perfect being (regardless of whether he had a name, was a man once or not) would want me to do and what not to do. If it was not true then its like a masterpiece of literature, a myth, a great book filled with examples of how righteous people act. We don't disregard books or stories ;we understand the themes, evaluate the message and admire it if its good, ignore it if its bad. Assuming that The bible or the Quran are not inspired by God does not mean its bullshit. Aristotle's philosophy has many fallacies but it also contains shit loads of good knowledge and wisdom... you don't reject everything his books say.. you evaluate and admire what you find useful and correct and you neglect the false. Never follow or judge anything blindly no matter how many times its right or wrong. For example i believe in the equality of males and females while my religion sees male superior (that would be true only in medieval arabia 1500 years ago as life was different). I believe that "turn the other cheek" is not the best way to deal with people who harm you but i admire its message.
No one can deny that mohammed and jesus and moses where virtuous...
if they are a myth then they are combinations of how the perfect man should act in their respective culture. That doesnt mean you have to do exactly everything they do.. but they inspire you to be righteous. If you look up to your father as a good man that does not mean you have to copy him in every action.
You don't have to pray 5 times a day or go to church to be a righteous man.

If you ask me why am i a muslim not a christian i would not know. I dont really care about the particular beliefs.. they are in the heart and do no change to the world. On the other hand actions do change the world. Greed brought us war, homosexuality brought us aids.. if i dont believe that jesus or mohammed where godly inspired that does not mean that they were evil people and does not mean that they point me to the wrong direction.
You don't have to be righteous from the fear of hell... you can be a good man without religion and you can be a bad man with religion.
A good man is judged by his actions, not by his beliefs.

 

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[Martin]

Religion is thousand of years old.. alterations to it exist on day to day basis so you can never know for sure if what we have now is god's words or advice..
If it was true, then it is inspired by God and corrupted by man. I use my moral compass to know what a perfect being (regardless of whether he had a name, was a man once or not) would want me to do and what not to do. If it was not true then its like a masterpiece of literature, a myth, a great book filled with examples of how righteous people act. We don't disregard books or stories ;we understand the themes, evaluate the message and admire it if its good, ignore it if its bad. Assuming that The bible or the Quran are not inspired by God does not mean its bullshit. Aristotle's philosophy has many fallacies but it also contains shit loads of good knowledge and wisdom... you don't reject everything his books say.. you evaluate and admire what you find useful and correct and you neglect the false.

Right, so Jesus and Mohammed are no different from other fictional characters and there's nothing particularly special about them.

Never follow or judge anything blindly no matter how many times its right or wrong.

That pretty much contradicts the premise of religion altogether. Moses sacrificing his son to god is recounted over and over to drive this point home.


The point is that pretty much everything you say puts you squarely in the position of someone who isn't really a religious person. So why you call yourself Muslim I don't know, out of habit maybe? Even if you do believe in god you don't seem to follow any particular religion.

 

[Hist]

The point is that pretty much everything you say puts you squarely in the position of someone who isn't really a religious person. So why you call yourself Muslim I don't know, out of habit maybe? Even if you do believe in god you don't seem to follow any particular religion.

partially true, i am not interested in particular ideas/beliefs as they do not affect how i act in life.. i am interested in what I CAN do and CAN form an opinion of.. things i can say about This is right and this is wrong.

Right, so Jesus and Mohammed are no different from other fictional characters and there's nothing particularly special about them.

They are not to me, but they are to you...

i mean if you think they are not Godsent that doesn't mean you should think they are not good virtuous wise men.
If you were right and they were ordinary people that happen to be good men or wise men.. that doesn't mean you should not look up to them as good role models in the way they lived.
What i know (and athiests should know) for certain without doubt that these persons were good and virtuous (regardless they are god sent or no).
What we cannot know with certainty is if they were sent by god, created by man or are god himself.

my philosophy is this: Be a good man regardless of who you worship, be it Allah, Jesus or no one at all.

 

[jukazem]

That pretty much contradicts the premise of religion altogether. Moses sacrificing his son to god is recounted over and over to drive this point home.

This the second time you mentioned Moses sacrificing his son when Christians, Jews... believe it's Abraham (off-course you're not a believer). You have something against Moses?

And about Abraham sacrificing his son, I found an article. Read if you're free and interested.
http://www.submission.org/Ismail.html

 

[Martin]

This the second time you mentioned Moses sacrificing his son when Christians, Jews... believe it's Abraham (off-course you're not a believer). You have something against Moses?

And about Abraham sacrificing his son, I found an article. Read if you're free and interested.
http://www.submission.org/Ismail.html

lol I really don't care if it was Moses or Abraham, I guess that's why I don't remember it

thanks for keeping track

 

[swag]

To Geof's earlier point, a corollary in my experience here has been that the Juventuz non-believers have tended to rant on these forms a lot more than the believers. So I kind of find Andy's original post to start this thread a bit amusing under that context.

Because, at least in my skewed opinion, the majority of the condemnation of souls around here has ironically originated from the atheists. They more often seem to have a lower tolerance for coexisting with the others.

 

[Martin]

To Geof's earlier point, a corollary in my experience here has been that the Juventuz non-believers have tended to rant on these forms a lot more than the believers. So I kind of find Andy's original post to start this thread a bit amusing under that context.

Because, at least in my skewed opinion, the majority of the condemnation of souls around here has ironically originated from the atheists. They more often seem to have a lower tolerance for coexisting with the others.

That might have something to do with atheists not being able to mouth off elsewhere. Just a hypothesis.

 

[Bjerknes]

To Geof's earlier point, a corollary in my experience here has been that the Juventuz non-believers have tended to rant on these forms a lot more than the believers. So I kind of find Andy's original post to start this thread a bit amusing under that context.

Because, at least in my skewed opinion, the majority of the condemnation of souls around here has ironically originated from the atheists. They more often seem to have a lower tolerance for coexisting with the others.

On this forum, perhaps.

In real life, no.

But I am generally open to people practicing their "faith", unless they attack me in the first place.

Somebody here attacked me in the first place.

 

[Hist]

by the way Muslims believe the same thing about Ibrahim.
and in his case.. GOD spoke to him..
wouldn't anyone do the same?

 

[Hist]

i mean he has affirmation.. he should inspire us to have the same affirmation.. but only an inspiration.
There is a huge difference between witnessing god and just hearing stories about him.
Ibrahim can know for certain, we can not.. especially that we are here 1500 years after Mohammad and 2009 after Jesus

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

so what gives certain people the right to say that they know for sure what happened

 

[Hist]

Thats what i've been saying. Each claim to be the true and only correct religion and none of them can prove it.

 

[Snoop]

Two points come to mind.

1) Does it matter whether religion is true? If not, then it's really just another fairy tale, a piece of fiction. In which case it makes a pretty awful justification for why anyone should take the insight it has and build their life around it.

2) If you recognize that Jesus and Mohammed were good role models, that means you have a moral compass within you with which to make that determination. In other words, these stories are not telling you anything you didn't already know. So again, what's the big revelation?

I will ask you a question Martin, and for everyone. Let's say it is proven that there is God, would you act any different?

 

[Martin]

I will ask you a question Martin, and for everyone. Let's say it is proven that there is God, would you act any different?

If you could prove God exists, it wouldn't be religion anymore, would it? It'd be a scientific fact. And I'd accept it on the merits that I accept all science.

If you take the Bible as the model, it would also mean that we are all living under an insane dictator who wants us to tell him we love him all the time, and who's perfectly willing to kill us all (except Noah) if we are being "bad" according to his twisted criteria. I mean even Stalin seems a reasonable man in comparison.

 

[Snoop]

If you could prove God exists, it wouldn't be religion anymore, would it? It'd be a scientific fact. And I'd accept it on the merits that I accept all science.

If you take the Bible as the model, it would also mean that we are all living under an insane dictator who wants us to tell him we love him all the time, and who's perfectly willing to kill us all (except Noah) if we are being "bad" according to his twisted criteria. I mean even Stalin seems a reasonable man in comparison.

Likewise here. If it is proven, if those "Miracles" happen. I would act the same way, simply because the slavery word doesn't exist in my book. For this reason I don't care if it exists or not, nothing will change for me..

 

[Martin]

I didn't really answer your question. Would I act any different? Yes, I would. I would probably have to be very careful about what I say and how I act if I'm under constant surveillance. And if it turned out that this dictator not only could track my movement, but also intercept my thoughts, I might just have to kill myself. Owing to the fact that my personal identity is pretty heavily tied up in being an individual and my thoughts being private.

 

[Snoop]

If you could prove God exists, it wouldn't be religion anymore, would it? It'd be a scientific fact. And I'd accept it on the merits that I accept all science.

If you take the Bible as the model, it would also mean that we are all living under an insane dictator who wants us to tell him we love him all the time, and who's perfectly willing to kill us all (except Noah) if we are being "bad" according to his twisted criteria. I mean even Stalin seems a reasonable man in comparison.

I understood no from here

I didn't really answer your question. Would I act any different? Yes, I would. I would probably have to be very careful about what I say and how I act if I'm under constant surveillance. And if it turned out that this dictator not only could track my movement, but also intercept my thoughts, I might just have to kill myself. Owing to the fact that my personal identity is pretty heavily tied up in being an individual and my thoughts being private.

The answer is no then Martin. You wouldn't change yourself or your thoughts, you wouldn't surrender or be God's slave, in other words, you would live the way you are living now.


but why killing yourself thou? you would go directly to hell, and will miss all the fun before that

 

[Martin]

The answer is no then Martin. You wouldn't change yourself or your thoughts, you wouldn't surrender or be God's slave, in other words, you would live the way you are living now.

See, that's the interesting thing. There has never been a regime in the world that people enjoyed living under. And yet people still fantasize about this god character who's the worst of dictators. If they really *did* live under him, not only would they be punished for every small transgression (sinning now has immediate punishment), they wouldn't even have the privacy of their own thoughts.

Dreaming of slavery, it's almost hard to think of anything more bizarre.

but why killing yourself thou? you would go directly to hell, and will miss all the fun before that

If slavery is fun then you and I don't see fun the same way. :wink:

 

[Snoop]

but you could live freely like you do now (even if there is a dictator) and then enjoy the hell

 

[Hist]

if you indulge in a philosophical discourse with putting scripture aside, you will find that God by necessity is not just all powerful. He must be all PERFECT meaning, Justice is applied by him to a perfection therefore calling him a dictator is completely false..

He created you and gave motion to this world. He made it with all its goods and bads.

Think of yourself as a player in a computer game. You are given the tools (your mind and body) and you have different doors to through. You are not forced to do one thing over the other, however there is only 1 way to finish the game.

He created this world and he gives you the free will and judgment to choose for yourself between the right and the wrong.
He tells you that if you do right for yourself and for the people he will reward you in life and in heaven. If you try to do whats right but fail to, he will be merciful and he will reward you just for trying (Your intentions are what count). If you Intentionally ignore the favors he has done you, if you intentionally direct what he gave you towards evil, if you enjoy destroying everything good he created he will punish you.
Court can judge falsely at times because they never can take all factors into consideration.... Gods' knowledge is infinite he will judge you rightly according to how you act in life.
A dictator is unjust, a dictator is very very far from perfect. Your description is inaccurate. Any religion will tell you DO NOT kill, steal, rape,gamble, fuck, lie, cheat, drink..etc..
God tells you to take care of yourself and to take care of others as well... i cannot see why you think he is a dictator neither under a philosophical premises nor under an ethical one?