You're going to hell if you __________ (1 Viewer)

[swag]

Do you know something? I could have a dog and treat it in the best possible way, take care of it, show it respect in every single aspect. But you know what? I'm still the owner of the dog, and the dog cannot make its own decisions, it's not free.

I'm exaggerating the example on purpose.

I'm not so sure that's much of an exaggeration. Particularly seeing how you and I seem to agree with how some animal lovers are merely afraid of developing relationships with other humans that they cannot dominate.

The parallels with how women are turned into obedient dogs just because of the misfortune of their chromosomes at birth begs legitimate questions.

 

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[Martin]

I'm not so sure that's much of an exaggeration. Particularly seeing how you and I seem to agree with how some animal lovers are merely afraid of developing relationships with other humans that they cannot dominate.

I see this is a wider issue. The fact that our humanitarian emotional apparatus doesn't really like to acknowledge is that all relationships are driven by power. There's always a question of who has power and who doesn't.

Now in this kind well meaning marriage where the wife is supposed to obey the husband you have this benevolent dictator situation. He's in power, but he's being generous and allowing her plenty of freedom, almost selling the illusion that she really is free. But then it comes to a point where (like a forum moderator) it goes over the line and the power distribution is very visible suddenly.

Inevitably, if you support this kind of marriage, you have to ask yourself why must the wife be subordinate to the husband? Why must one person be "in charge"? Isn't marriage all about creating an alliance where noone has to be the dictator?

 

[Bjerknes]

Back to bashing animal lovers again I see.

 

[Il Re]

Don't lecture him, Martin. They don't have respect for women.

by they u mean all muslims? u just generalised over 1 billion people

 

[Bjerknes]

by they u mean all muslims? u just generalised over 1 billion people

Making women wear unnecessary clothes is offensive to me. So yes, I did.

 

[Il Re]

Making women wear unnecessary clothes is offensive to me. So yes, I did.

there are a lot of reason for that, i'm not saying i agree or disagree but do you even know why they're supposed to wear what they wear

 

[Martin]

Back to bashing animal lovers again I see.

it's what I do best, anday

 

[Bjerknes]

there are a lot of reason for that, i'm not saying i agree or disagree but do you even know why they're supposed to wear what they wear

Because that's what they're told.

it's what I do best, anday

So what if I like to have pets? Does that mean I don't function well with society?

 

[swag]

it's what I do best, anday

"Anday"?

I like it...

 

[Il Re]

Because that's what they're told.

common andy ur better than that, i mean the actual reasons

 

[Martin]

So what if I like to have pets? Does that mean I don't function well with society?

It's my thesis that people who own pets like to have an organism they can control and rule. And they like the guarantee that says the animal will never become superior to you, you are its master forever.

If so, why this please them? Well, why don't you tell me.

 

[swag]

Because that's what they're told.

And what if the husband tells the wife to vote a certain way? Does she honestly have a vote at all as a member of society? She has to obey her husband first and foremost. She may as well be his dog.

So what if I like to have pets? Does that mean I don't function well with society?

There's a difference between owning a pet and, say, thinking that a puppy with a hurt paw deserves a charitable donation check and a person without health care does not.

 

[Hist]

Not obeying him as a slave
Its well known that the women is influenced by her emotions more than the man

The house is just like the ship where there is only one captain who has the decision
2 captains = sinking ship
In Islam, the wife is asked to follow her husband and obey him as long as there are no conflicts with Islamic rules and laws
actually, this issue will drag us to another one, the standing of the woman in the Islam
The Muslim is ordered to treat his wife in the best way, to take care of all her needs and to show her all respect in every single aspect


I am not assuming here
How would you respect something you don't believe in in the first place
Muslim guy believes in Jesus and his bible while the Christian one doesn't believe in Quran and Mohammed as a prophet
Believe = respect
Disbelieve = ?
BTW

I said that a Christian to respect his Muslim's wife believes is something can not be guaranteed because, as i said earlier, Its hard to expect the Christian guy to respect his Muslim's wife religion when he don't believes in it

lol you argue terribly lol (no offense)


Believe= respect
no belief= no respect.... WRONG

I respect Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, pagans... every religion as long as it does not insult me even if i do not believe in it and i think everyone should do the same.


Now you guys asked why Muslim women cannot marry christian men..
Someone touched on it but in an incorrect way.
Any Muslim has to do the 5 pillars of Islam
these include:
1) Shahada (saying i admit there is no god but one god and mohammed is his messenger
2) the 5 daily prayers
3) Fasting in Ramadan
4) Zakah (i explained it in an earlier post)
5) Hajj (pilgrimage to the Kaaba in saudi arabia)


A muslim woman is asked to obey her husband as long as he is not asking for some thing that is wrong or abusive etc.
Now lets go through the 5 pillars i've just mentioned

1) Shahada (no problem here)
2) 5 Prayers: (no problem here)
3) Fasting In ramadan: Muslims in Ramadan fast as most of you know, we do not eat or drink or have sexual intercourse of any kind as long as we are fasting(from sun rise to sunset) a non muslim husband will face conflicts with his wife since they wont eat together.. they wont fuck.. she wouldnt cook.. any man would want that from his wife and that would put the woman in a situation to choose either to ignore his wishes or to ignore the religion's wishes. so here, conflict will arise in most cases.. not necessarily in all.. but in most. Further, some types of food (pork) and alchohol is prevented in Islam and that again will cause conflict.
4)Zakah: (arguably no problem here)
5) Hajj: Now this is the biggest problem... None Muslims are not allowed in Mecca... also young women are not allowed to go to hijj alone.. so a muslim woman cannot go to hijj unless she goes with her brother or father etc.. but not with her husband as he is christian. Assuming she will go with her brother.. Hijj takes about 2 weeks.. So she will have to go travel and leave her husband for 2-3 weeks to perform hijj. Most husbands wont fancy that especially in middle eastern societies.. and also most women do NOT have brothers or fathers let alone some who are willing to go with their sisters/daughters.


In conclusion, Most of the pillars of Islam will go against the husband's will.. and its clear that it is very rare to find someone who is an exception in all these things.. so Islamic law cannot make a rule based on a very small rare minority of people who would give that much freedom for their wives.

does it make sense?

 

[Martin]

snake_midget, tell me the regulations for leaving islam.

 

[BlanquiNegro]

lol you argue terribly lol (no offense)

You said what i have said in different way
anyway
what i have said is exactly what our Imams said
http://www.ali4.com/vb/showthread.php?t=528

maybe you think they are terrible as well

Believe= respect
no belief= no respect.... WRONG

I respect Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, pagans... every religion as long as it does not insult me even if i do not believe in it and i think everyone should do the same.

Athiest ,agnostics etc are not religions , actually they are anti-religions
Anyway
I meant the respect between husband and wife and not in any other level
BTW
i think you should read a little about Buddhists before saying that u respect them

Now you guys asked why Muslim women cannot marry christian men..
Someone touched on it but in an incorrect way.
Any Muslim has to do the 5 pillars of Islam
these include:
1) Shahada (saying i admit there is no god but one god and mohammed is his messenger
2) the 5 daily prayers
3) Fasting in Ramadan
4) Zakah (i explained it in an earlier post)
5) Hajj (pilgrimage to the Kaaba in saudi arabia)


A muslim woman is asked to obey her husband as long as he is not asking for some thing that is wrong or abusive etc.
Now lets go through the 5 pillars i've just mentioned

1) Shahada (no problem here)
2) 5 Prayers: (no problem here)
3) Fasting In ramadan: Muslims in Ramadan fast as most of you know, we do not eat or drink or have sexual intercourse of any kind as long as we are fasting(from sun rise to sunset) a non muslim husband will face conflicts with his wife since they wont eat together.. they wont fuck.. she wouldnt cook.. any man would want that from his wife and that would put the woman in a situation to choose either to ignore his wishes or to ignore the religion's wishes. so here, conflict will arise in most cases.. not necessarily in all.. but in most. Further, some types of food (pork) and alchohol is prevented in Islam and that again will cause conflict.
4)Zakah: (arguably no problem here)
5) Hajj: Now this is the biggest problem... None Muslims are not allowed in Mecca... also young women are not allowed to go to hijj alone.. so a muslim woman cannot go to hijj unless she goes with her brother or father etc.. but not with her husband as he is christian. Assuming she will go with her brother.. Hijj takes about 2 weeks.. So she will have to go travel and leave her husband for 2-3 weeks to perform hijj. Most husbands wont fancy that especially in middle eastern societies.. and also most women do NOT have brothers or fathers let alone some who are willing to go with their sisters/daughters.


In conclusion, Most of the pillars of Islam will go against the husband's will.. and its clear that it is very rare to find someone who is an exception in all these things.. so Islamic law cannot make a rule based on a very small rare minority of people who would give that much freedom for their wives.

does it make sense?

agree here

 

[Hist]

So far i have been defending islam and providing logical arguments...
however women's rights is the only thing i cannot defend in Islam.

In Islam,
A women = half a man
When it comes to:
1) Voting
2) Heritage
3) Eye witness in court


1) meaning.. if we are having a vote... and we are 5 members. .. 3 females and 2 males. assuming the 3 females vote for X. and the 2 males vote for Y.
The Men's vote count for more making it 4:3 as 1 man = 2 women.
If 1 man against 2 women then we have a tie.

2) samething goes for heritage, assuming i had a sister and i am the only male...
If my father has 900 $ and he died.. one would think it fair to split it 50/50 meaning i get 450 and my sister gets 450.. but under islamic law i get twice as she does. i get 600$ and she gets 300$.

3) Same thing in court you get the picture.

If you ask a muslim preacher why is this the case he most probably will tell you men tend to be more rational while women tend to be more emotional (this can apply for court and for voting).. but does that mean that every man is smarter than every woman? Hell no! i know some dumb men that even dogs can outsmart and i think we all know that from experience. IS the reason preachers give strong rational reasons? Hell no! .. I really do not and cannot defend this aspect of Islam.

In heritage, Men get twice as much.. you ask a preacher why? he'll tell you because men go to work and are responsible to pay for all expenses for the entire family while women sit at home and clean and shit. So since men has more financial burdens than women then men should get twice as much..
let me ask this... assuming i was a billionaire and my sister was starving of poverty.... if my father dies.. who needs the cash more? under islamic law i get twice as much NO EXCEPTIONS.. i can give her the money afterwards if i want to.. but its none obligatory.. meaning if i am a selfish SOB i can leave her to rot regardless of who needs the money more.


The Islamic law can apply to women of the old centuries were women were never educated.. never had jobs... they were more like vegetables and the man did all the work.. under those conditions ONLY the Islamic law's treatment of women can be fair... but in the current age.. where women are equal to men in every aspect if not better.. this is totally unfair and down-grading.. very few muslims admit what i am admitting now as no one questions anything and this is the biggest error everyone falls into.

I have actually conducted a survey to see whether muslim arab men think really women are half men ... or do they think so ONLY when religion is mentioned?
i can give out the details of the survey if you ask me to but generally the result was against the way Islamic law treats women.

In conclusion, Women are heavily downgraded in Islam in comparison to modern day life values... the way islamic law operated is adequate ONLY in the ancient world not in the world we live in now. More people ought to think the same as something needs to be changed imo.

 

[Bjerknes]

common andy ur better than that, i mean the actual reasons

Yes, right here.

"Rules regarding Muslim women's (and men's) attire are derived from the Quran, Islam's revealed text, and the traditions (hadith) of the 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). In the Quran, God states: "Say to 
the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their 
modesty...And say to the believing women that they should lower their 
gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty 
and adornments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they 
should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty 
except to their husbands, their fathers...(a list of exceptions)" 
[Chapter 24, verses 30-31] Also, "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and 
daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer 
garments over their persons...that they should be known and not 
molested." [Chapter 33, verse 59]

It's my thesis that people who own pets like to have an organism they can control and rule. And they like the guarantee that says the animal will never become superior to you, you are its master forever."

If so, why this please them? Well, why don't you tell me.

That's a pretty inane thesis, I must say.

Perhaps it pleases people because animals are beautiful living things?

Jeez, and they call me the conspiracy theorist.

 

[Martin]

So far i have been defending islam and providing logical arguments...
however women's rights is the only thing i cannot defend in Islam.

In Islam,
A women = half a man
When it comes to:
1) Voting
2) Heritage
3) Eye witness in court

Okay, good. So if this is what you think, do you believe these are the unalterable rules handed down by god :blahblah: ?

If this imbalance exists, is it not obvious that these rules were created by men?

 

[Martin]

Yes, right here.

"Rules regarding Muslim women's (and men's) attire are derived from the Quran, Islam's revealed text, and the traditions (hadith) of the 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). In the Quran, God states: "Say to 
the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their 
modesty...And say to the believing women that they should lower their 
gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty 
and adornments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they 
should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty 
except to their husbands, their fathers...(a list of exceptions)" 
[Chapter 24, verses 30-31] Also, "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and 
daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer 
garments over their persons...that they should be known and not 
molested." [Chapter 33, verse 59]

Not molested? I love phrases like this. So in other words women should cover up their bodies because our men are such uncivilized animals that they will otherwise molest the women.

That's a pretty inane thesis, I must say.

Perhaps it pleases people because animals are beautiful living things?

Perhaps. But then psychoanalysis tells us not to trust the motives people say they have. One because they are not necessarily honest. Two because they may not even themselves know.

Jeez, and they call me the conspiracy theorist.

What conspiracy? Who's conspiring against whom?

 

[Hist]

snake_midget, tell me the regulations for leaving islam.

The claim that apostates are killed is wrong and is not what the Quran says.
It contradicts with the Quran and the Sunna....
did muslims kill many many people for rejecting islam after being followers? Yes.. Many Many... i can even give you an official statement made by the Azhar (islamic law institute) in the 1700's on a case of a man who was a muslim and converted to christianity when he married a german christian woman. The islamic court said he should be killed and his 3 children will have to grow up into adults.. if they are muslims they live.. if not.. they die.

Different sects of Islam promote different charges to apostasy.. NONE of them is supported from the Quran or Hadith...
check this out they say it best: (get to the second part)
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...nglish-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar





Note on the women part in my previous post: if you are a muslim and you do not think Women= half men under islamic law i suggest you read surrat al nisaa.