Israeli-Palestinian conflict (39 Viewers)

[AFL_ITALIA]

The settlers violence or the settelment expansion issues can not and will not be resolved under this goverment, or any goverment under Bibi. It is a very big issue in the conflict and a huge dettirment to peace, also very quastionably moral imo (the settlements themselves, the settlers violence ofc is undoubtedly reprehensible but it is still a radicalised minority)

With that said I think people here are captives of a misconception that the solution is outside pressure on Israel. While it can bring about a change the time and extreme action it will require renders this option almost unless due to couple of factors in play.

First, the settlers movment itself is a deeply ideologic/religious movment. No amount of outside pressure will change their course and belief. Reason doesn't factor in here at all. They are not operation within any realm of rationality.
Last election they got around 10% of votes, some of them were not even settlers but farmers communities who were promised better protection against agricultural theft and terror. They will not get those votes back ever again.

Second, the orthodox jews parties only care about money and funds to their communities. Religiously they are close to the settlers movment and as long he can buy them off they will stay in Bibi's pocket. The settelment movement in the goverment will have no qualms in diverting budgets to them as long as it serves them so they make great partners.

Third and most important is that those 2 blocks in Israeli politics are the last groups that are willing to form a coalition with Bibi.
Any move he makes that will even be precsived as opposed to the settlers movements he losses his seat and probably forever.

As long as Bibi can get elected this will never change. Sanctions, international pressure, isolation do not matter here, Bibi is trapped with the settlers agenda as long as he stays in politics.

The only option for this to stop is a political change here in Israel, were a new type of coalition form, different from the ones of the last decade or so. A coalition more practical and logical then one driven by a combination of extreme, blind ideology and a bibi personality cult ala Trump. One that will also be more attune to the international community and our allies.

After this, by next election hopefully Bibi will still no longer have the voter base to form any type of coalition, let alone this extreme one, it seems like his presonallty cult is gone almost completely. Until that happens and more parts of the public face the problem honestly this will not change, no matter the amount of outside pressure.

I see it's universal. They're the ones that need their own country.

You don't think this will make people MORE extreme? This is how I think it will go.

 

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[Tomice]

I see it's universal. They're the ones that need their own country.

You don't think this will make people MORE extreme? This is how I think it will go.

I wish, it wouldn't last a day lol.

The right and left dichotomy is Israel is a bit different then most countries, it is also less binary. Vast majority of the right votes from Bibi's party has no choice but move to the center-right parties.
Their only option to the right of Bibi is the settlers parties and their leaders are being criticised just as much as Bibi if not more.

Also the settelmet movement itself gets some of the blame as a lot of military effort and manpower was shifted from gaza to the west bank due to their expansion.The religious/ultra Conservative side of them is also an issue for a lot of the Liberal right voters.

I think the right side parties in the past despite seeming more hawkish have shown willingness to be practical and make concessions. Sharon's gaza withdrawl, Begin's Egypt peace returing the Sinai, Olmert peace offer etc.

Bibi is not ideologic right, his only ideology is getting elected and to do the minimum he can so he has the widest base possible

People now are upset, naturally the discourse is much more violent and extreme. Some will turn more extreme, others will see that a complete separation is the only course. Even if hate towards Palestinians grow I don't mind, as long as it comes with a more practical approach to the conflict.

Maybe I'm wrong but I see this as an opportunity for the revival of the center-left. This will not happen in a day, if the West Bank will be relatively quite for a few years and Hamas is gone then there is a real chance for a peace process to restart. I also think more international pressure will be put on both sides to reach an agreement after this, assuming hamas is removed.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

@DAiDEViL what sort of cuckery is this

 

[X Æ A-12]

Yes you support tanks with infantry, and we have plenty of ambushed Merkavas to document the Israeli issues. But the guy who ran up on the tank and placed a warhead next to the ammo storage is next lvl, thats not shooting RPGs from cover.


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Guy must've seen Saving Private Ryan

 

[Nzoric]

@DAiDEViL what sort of cuckery is this

Visegrad


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[DAiDEViL]

@DAiDEViL what sort of cuckery is this

Just Merz things. Ignore him.

 

[Seven]

I wish, it wouldn't last a day lol.

The right and left dichotomy is Israel is a bit different then most countries, it is also less binary. Vast majority of the right votes from Bibi's party has no choice but move to the center-right parties.
Their only option to the right of Bibi is the settlers parties and their leaders are being criticised just as much as Bibi if not more.

Also the settelmet movement itself gets some of the blame as a lot of military effort and manpower was shifted from gaza to the west bank due to their expansion.The religious/ultra Conservative side of them is also an issue for a lot of the Liberal right voters.

I think the right side parties in the past despite seeming more hawkish have shown willingness to be practical and make concessions. Sharon's gaza withdrawl, Begin's Egypt peace returing the Sinai, Olmert peace offer etc.

Bibi is not ideologic right, his only ideology is getting elected and to do the minimum he can so he has the widest base possible

People now are upset, naturally the discourse is much more violent and extreme. Some will turn more extreme, others will see that a complete separation is the only course. Even if hate towards Palestinians grow I don't mind, as long as it comes with a more practical approach to the conflict.

Maybe I'm wrong but I see this as an opportunity for the revival of the center-left. This will not happen in a day, if the West Bank will be relatively quite for a few years and Hamas is gone then there is a real chance for a peace process to restart. I also think more international pressure will be put on both sides to reach an agreement after this, assuming hamas is removed.

It's the first time there will be any sort of actual pressure on Israel so that's a plus.

Any hope for a peace process right now does seem to hinge on Hamas being gone though and, like I've said before, I think that change needs to come organically. Recent Israeli actions probably set us back for another 15 years tbh.

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[Post Ironic]

It's the first time there will be any sort of actual pressure on Israel so that's a plus.

Any hope for a peace process right now does seem to hinge on Hamas being gone though and, like I've said before, I think that change needs to come organically. Recent Israeli actions probably set us back for another 15 years tbh.

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I’m thinking that what is needed, more and more, is UN peacekeepers in Gaza. An Israeli occupation isn’t that, and never will be. I know Israel distrusts the UN, but a multinational UN peacekeeping force is probably far and way the best option for having this conflict cease, without Hamas being able to just take advantage of it to regroup and make more October 7th style attacks. It also allows for Hamas removed from power and disarmed, and allows aid to actually reach those who need it. And while this would obviously be a no go from Israel, the West Bank should also have Israeli forces/police removed and another UN peacekeeping force brought in while negotiations for a new two state solution resume.

 

[BayernFan]

Guy must've seen Saving Private Ryan

Best part of the movie is the last battle, especially with the 20 mm. And of course the Waffen SS would use it against infantry and not aircraft, total psychopaths.

Spoiler: 20 mm

 

[Seven]

I’m thinking that what is needed, more and more, is UN peacekeepers in Gaza. An Israeli occupation isn’t that, and never will be. I know Israel distrusts the UN, but a multinational UN peacekeeping force is probably far and way the best option for having this conflict cease, without Hamas being able to just take advantage of it to regroup and make more October 7th style attacks. It also allows for Hamas removed from power and disarmed, and allows aid to actually reach those who need it. And while this would obviously be a no go from Israel, the West Bank should also have Israeli forces/police removed and another UN peacekeeping force brought in while negotiations for a new two state solution resume.

I see a couple of issues though:

1. No country is ever keen on UN peacekeepers on its territory or even nearby. It must be like having your kid over from its mother with a court mandated assistant nearby.

2. It would be an expensive and perilous operation for the UN. I think South Sudan costs about 1 billion dollars a year. And perilous because.. well.. let us just say that the UN peacekeepers don't have the best record when it comes to preventing genocide.

3. I don't believe this Israeli government wants a peaceful solution. They gain from this conflict. And I think there are quite a few Israeli officials who would much rather just annex Gaza.

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[Post Ironic]

I see a couple of issues though:

1. No country is ever keen on UN peacekeepers on its territory or even nearby. It must be like having your kid over from its mother with a court mandated assistant nearby.

2. It would be an expensive and perilous operation for the UN. I think South Sudan costs about 1 billion dollars a year. And perilous because.. well.. let us just say that the UN peacekeepers don't have the best record when it comes to preventing genocide.

3. I don't believe this Israeli government wants a peaceful solution. They gain from this conflict. And I think there are quite a few Israeli officials who would much rather just annex Gaza.

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I don’t disagree with any of this. The Israeli government distrusts the UN, distrusts the idea of Palestinian sovereignty that isn’t kept forcibly demilitarized by Israeli security forces, and is held hostage to some extent by the massive illegal settlements that have already happened

I also think Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and Iran-backed proxies are desperate for this conflict to continue as it stops the more forward thinking Arab and Islamic nations from normalizing relations with Israel.

So you have two sides who both see a continued conflict as beneficial.

Conversely, I don’t see how this conflict comes to a truly peaceful resolution any time in the next decade or so without independent and multinational peacekeeping/enforcement. And that’s a major problem.

 

[BayernFan]

 

[Strickland]

Saw a pro-Palestine protest in Valletta while vacationing yesterday, was a bit confused. 90% of the signs were about stopping genocide, stopping the deaths of civilians, etc, very peace oriented and understandable. But then 90% of the chants were "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free" and similar - are they calling for the elimination of the Israel state or am I misunderstanding the chants?

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

Israeli Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu said on Sunday that dropping an “nuclear bomb” on the Gaza Strip is “an option,” according to local media.

Eliyahu, a minister from the far-right Otzma Yehudit party, said that “one of Israel’s options in the war in Gaza is to drop a nuclear bomb on the Strip,” daily Times of Israel reported.

Speaking a radio interview, Eliyahu also “voices his objection to allowing any humanitarian aid into Gaza.”

“We wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” the minister said, adding that “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”

The far-right minister also said that the Palestinian population “can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves.”

He added: “Anyone waving a Palestinian or Hamas flag shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth.”

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-eas...pping-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-is-option-/3044272

why ireland though? is it because they are ''snake free''?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Israeli Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu said on Sunday that dropping an “nuclear bomb” on the Gaza Strip is “an option,” according to local media.

Eliyahu, a minister from the far-right Otzma Yehudit party, said that “one of Israel’s options in the war in Gaza is to drop a nuclear bomb on the Strip,” daily Times of Israel reported.

Speaking a radio interview, Eliyahu also “voices his objection to allowing any humanitarian aid into Gaza.”

“We wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid,” the minister said, adding that “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”

The far-right minister also said that the Palestinian population “can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves.”

He added: “Anyone waving a Palestinian or Hamas flag shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth.”

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-eas...pping-nuclear-bomb-on-gaza-is-option-/3044272

why ireland though? is it because they are ''snake free''?

He's going to get fired but it doesnt matter this is clear call for genocide and no way this guy was appointed without getting vetted, so this is a government who appoints proud genocidal jewish supremacists. They should all be tried the same way the nazis were.

 

[Seven]

He's going to get fired but it doesnt matter this is clear call for genocide and no way this guy was appointed without getting vetted, so this is a government who appoints proud genocidal jewish supremacists. They should all be tried the same way the nazis were.

While I agree that many Israeli government officials are downright criminal, it feels a bit disingenuous to not mention that they are facing an adversary that wants them wiped from the Earth.

You can't compare that to Nazi Germany at all.

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[Turk_Bianconero]

you cant compare them to nazis, true. they are lower than that. nazis never wanted to wipe out mankind from the earth.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

While I agree that many Israeli government officials are downright criminal, it feels a bit disingenuous to not mention that they are facing an adversary that wants them wiped from the Earth.

You can't compare that to Nazi Germany at all.

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The motive of the adversary is irrelevant, genocide is genocide. People were hanged in Nuremberg for much less. Also that's an adversary israel helped create and kept alive to push their criminal agenda.

 

[Tomice]

He's going to get fired but it doesnt matter this is clear call for genocide and no way this guy was appointed without getting vetted, so this is a government who appoints proud genocidal jewish supremacists. They should all be tried the same way the nazis were.

I don't think you understand how the political system in Israel work. Ministers are not a professional appointment, it is a political job that the party who got the ministry In the coalition nebotiation appoint one of it's members.
No vetting unless he has criminal recored, the goverment can't fire him unless his party decide to replace him.

Basically we are stuck with this idiots until next election

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I don't think you understand how the political system in Israel work. Ministers are not a professional appointment, it is a political job that the party who got the ministry In the coalition nebotiation appoint one of it's members.
No vetting unless he has criminal recored, the goverment can't fire him unless his party decide to replace him.

Basically we are stuck with this idiots until next election

Can't fire him?? Are you serious