Israeli-Palestinian conflict (98 Viewers)

[Post Ironic]

Wonder why Israel’s West Bank policies and treatment of Palestinians didn’t infuriate anyone until now. I feel like they’ve been treating them like third class citizens for a long time. The attack by Hamas and the subsequent war just brought it to more people’s eyes I guess.

This has been going on forever, the change in the US side is the gradual extinction of boomers. Winds of change are definitely blowing.

Yeah, I think most non-boomer generation westerners have been angry about the settlements for a long time now. They were discussed in a couple of my Uni classes and the overwhelming consensus amongst us was that the Settlements were/are an atrocity. I think a lot of us, who support the right of Israeli state to exist and even to defend itself, find a lot of what Israel does infuriating and that our governments shouldn’t cave to the “anti-Semitism” accusations. Israel should face reduced aid/sanctions until it deals with the settlers/settlements.

 

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[Seven]

Israel needs to stop the West Bank settler shit or they are going to start losing government-level support from the west, and rightly so.

Well, according to some Israelis here that doesn't matter. Because Israel doesn't receive or need support from anyone.

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[BayernFan]

Israel really should give up all the settlements they created in the West Bank. By doing so they would also have a much better trumph card in terms of showing the World they want peace.

Israel is there to stay and the arabs who are against them should start to acknowledge that in stead of constantly saying they want to wipe them off the map. But at the same time should Israel stop their own shit.

 

[Tomice]

Do you realise that if we didn't blatantly bend the rules solely for Israel, you wouldn't even participate in international football?

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Oh no, how can we keep not qualifying to any tournament then?

Anyway you still don't have an argument

 

[duranfj]

I’ll never defend Hamas, but this isn’t about them anymore. How many children needs to die, how many people in general.

Also, as already mentioned this isn’t happening just today.

As someone who managed to survive the war and four years of siege which compared to the events happening in Gaza now looks like a childs play (and trust me it wasn’t) the defending bombing and killing is beyond any words.

I don’t want to be drawn further into this conversation, it hurts, especially when talking about victims as a statistics and numbers.

I’m sorry for everything that happens to you before. Thank you for sharing it and wish you nothing but the very best.

 

[Tomice]

The settlers violence or the settelment expansion issues can not and will not be resolved under this goverment, or any goverment under Bibi. It is a very big issue in the conflict and a huge dettirment to peace, also very quastionably moral imo (the settlements themselves, the settlers violence ofc is undoubtedly reprehensible but it is still a radicalised minority)

With that said I think people here are captives of a misconception that the solution is outside pressure on Israel. While it can bring about a change the time and extreme action it will require renders this option almost irrelevant due to couple of factors in play.

First, the settlers movment itself is a deeply ideologic/religious movment. No amount of outside pressure will change their course and belief. Reason doesn't factor in here at all. They are not operation within any realm of rationality.
Last election they got around 10% of votes, some of them were not even settlers but farmers communities who were promised better protection against agricultural theft and terror. They will not get those votes back ever again.

Second, the orthodox jews parties only care about money and funds to their communities. Religiously they are close to the settlers movment and as long he can buy them off they will stay in Bibi's pocket. The settelment movement in the goverment will have no qualms in diverting budgets to them as long as it serves them so they make great partners.

Third and most important is that those 2 blocks in Israeli politics are the last groups that are willing to form a coalition with Bibi.
Any move he makes that will even be precsived as opposed to the settlers movements he losses his seat and probably forever.

As long as Bibi can get elected this will never change. Sanctions, international pressure, isolation do not matter here, Bibi is trapped with the settlers agenda as long as he stays in politics.

The only option for this to stop is a political change here in Israel, were a new type of coalition form, different from the ones of the last decade or so. A coalition more practical and logical then one driven by a combination of extreme, blind ideology and a bibi personality cult ala Trump. One that will also be more attune to the international community and our allies.

After this, by next election hopefully Bibi will still no longer have the voter base to form any type of coalition, let alone this extreme one, it seems like his presonallty cult is gone almost completely. Until that happens and more parts of the public face the problem honestly this will not change, no matter the amount of outside pressure.

 

[Nzoric]

The guy with the anti tank weapons? I believe this is why you support your tanks with infantry cause the tank crew can't see someone run up on them like that. Good luck proceeding into a shelled out gaza with rubble and hidden tunnels everywhere

Yes you support tanks with infantry, and we have plenty of ambushed Merkavas to document the Israeli issues. But the guy who ran up on the tank and placed a warhead next to the ammo storage is next lvl, thats not shooting RPGs from cover.


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[Seven]

Oh no, how can we keep not qualifying to any tournament then?

Anyway you still don't have an argument

Well, I don't have any argument because each and every example doesn't count in your book.

But it doesn't matter.

Let's just suspend aid and support and see what happens. You'll be fine you say. So no worries there then.

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[Tomice]

Well, I don't have any argument because each and every example doesn't count in your book.

But it doesn't matter.

Let's just suspend aid and support and see what happens. You'll be fine you say. So no worries there then.

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You didn't bring any example outside the US.

And the US Israeli relations are not based on mercy or goodwill no matter how much you feel or claim it does.
The annual US aid to Israel is about .07% of our gdp and 3% of our yearly budget. Sure it a lot but not as you make it out to be. And it's a voucher not free money.

Also you are not an American, so who is "let's"?

Anyway, this goes nowhere. We'll agree to disagree

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

The settlers violence or the settelment expansion issues can not and will not be resolved under this goverment, or any goverment under Bibi. It is a very big issue in the conflict and a huge dettirment to peace, also very quastionably moral imo (the settlements themselves, the settlers violence ofc is undoubtedly reprehensible but it is still a radicalised minority)

With that said I think people here are captives of a misconception that the solution is outside pressure on Israel. While it can bring about a change the time and extreme action it will require renders this option almost unless due to couple of factors in play.

First, the settlers movment itself is a deeply ideologic/religious movment. No amount of outside pressure will change their course and belief. Reason doesn't factor in here at all. They are not operation within any realm of rationality.
Last election they got around 10% of votes, some of them were not even settlers but farmers communities who were promised better protection against agricultural theft and terror. They will not get those votes back ever again.

Second, the orthodox jews parties only care about money and funds to their communities. Religiously they are close to the settlers movment and as long he can buy them off they will stay in Bibi's pocket. The settelment movement in the goverment will have no qualms in diverting budgets to them as long as it serves them so they make great partners.

Third and most important is that those 2 blocks in Israeli politics are the last groups that are willing to form a coalition with Bibi.
Any move he makes that will even be precsived as opposed to the settlers movements he losses his seat and probably forever.

As long as Bibi can get elected this will never change. Sanctions, international pressure, isolation do not matter here, Bibi is trapped with the settlers agenda as long as he stays in politics.

The only option for this to stop is a political change here in Israel, were a new type of coalition form, different from the ones of the last decade or so. A coalition more practical and logical then one driven by a combination of extreme, blind ideology and a bibi personality cult ala Trump. One that will also be more attune to the international community and our allies.

After this, by next election hopefully Bibi will still no longer have the voter base to form any type of coalition, let alone this extreme one, it seems like his presonallty cult is gone almost completely. Until that happens and more parts of the public face the problem honestly this will not change, no matter the amount of outside pressure.

I see it's universal. They're the ones that need their own country.

You don't think this will make people MORE extreme? This is how I think it will go.

 

[Tomice]

I see it's universal. They're the ones that need their own country.

You don't think this will make people MORE extreme? This is how I think it will go.

I wish, it wouldn't last a day lol.

The right and left dichotomy is Israel is a bit different then most countries, it is also less binary. Vast majority of the right votes from Bibi's party has no choice but move to the center-right parties.
Their only option to the right of Bibi is the settlers parties and their leaders are being criticised just as much as Bibi if not more.

Also the settelmet movement itself gets some of the blame as a lot of military effort and manpower was shifted from gaza to the west bank due to their expansion.The religious/ultra Conservative side of them is also an issue for a lot of the Liberal right voters.

I think the right side parties in the past despite seeming more hawkish have shown willingness to be practical and make concessions. Sharon's gaza withdrawl, Begin's Egypt peace returing the Sinai, Olmert peace offer etc.

Bibi is not ideologic right, his only ideology is getting elected and to do the minimum he can so he has the widest base possible

People now are upset, naturally the discourse is much more violent and extreme. Some will turn more extreme, others will see that a complete separation is the only course. Even if hate towards Palestinians grow I don't mind, as long as it comes with a more practical approach to the conflict.

Maybe I'm wrong but I see this as an opportunity for the revival of the center-left. This will not happen in a day, if the West Bank will be relatively quite for a few years and Hamas is gone then there is a real chance for a peace process to restart. I also think more international pressure will be put on both sides to reach an agreement after this, assuming hamas is removed.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

@DAiDEViL what sort of cuckery is this

 

[X Æ A-12]

Yes you support tanks with infantry, and we have plenty of ambushed Merkavas to document the Israeli issues. But the guy who ran up on the tank and placed a warhead next to the ammo storage is next lvl, thats not shooting RPGs from cover.


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Guy must've seen Saving Private Ryan

 

[Nzoric]

@DAiDEViL what sort of cuckery is this

Visegrad


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[DAiDEViL]

@DAiDEViL what sort of cuckery is this

Just Merz things. Ignore him.

 

[Seven]

I wish, it wouldn't last a day lol.

The right and left dichotomy is Israel is a bit different then most countries, it is also less binary. Vast majority of the right votes from Bibi's party has no choice but move to the center-right parties.
Their only option to the right of Bibi is the settlers parties and their leaders are being criticised just as much as Bibi if not more.

Also the settelmet movement itself gets some of the blame as a lot of military effort and manpower was shifted from gaza to the west bank due to their expansion.The religious/ultra Conservative side of them is also an issue for a lot of the Liberal right voters.

I think the right side parties in the past despite seeming more hawkish have shown willingness to be practical and make concessions. Sharon's gaza withdrawl, Begin's Egypt peace returing the Sinai, Olmert peace offer etc.

Bibi is not ideologic right, his only ideology is getting elected and to do the minimum he can so he has the widest base possible

People now are upset, naturally the discourse is much more violent and extreme. Some will turn more extreme, others will see that a complete separation is the only course. Even if hate towards Palestinians grow I don't mind, as long as it comes with a more practical approach to the conflict.

Maybe I'm wrong but I see this as an opportunity for the revival of the center-left. This will not happen in a day, if the West Bank will be relatively quite for a few years and Hamas is gone then there is a real chance for a peace process to restart. I also think more international pressure will be put on both sides to reach an agreement after this, assuming hamas is removed.

It's the first time there will be any sort of actual pressure on Israel so that's a plus.

Any hope for a peace process right now does seem to hinge on Hamas being gone though and, like I've said before, I think that change needs to come organically. Recent Israeli actions probably set us back for another 15 years tbh.

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[Post Ironic]

It's the first time there will be any sort of actual pressure on Israel so that's a plus.

Any hope for a peace process right now does seem to hinge on Hamas being gone though and, like I've said before, I think that change needs to come organically. Recent Israeli actions probably set us back for another 15 years tbh.

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I’m thinking that what is needed, more and more, is UN peacekeepers in Gaza. An Israeli occupation isn’t that, and never will be. I know Israel distrusts the UN, but a multinational UN peacekeeping force is probably far and way the best option for having this conflict cease, without Hamas being able to just take advantage of it to regroup and make more October 7th style attacks. It also allows for Hamas removed from power and disarmed, and allows aid to actually reach those who need it. And while this would obviously be a no go from Israel, the West Bank should also have Israeli forces/police removed and another UN peacekeeping force brought in while negotiations for a new two state solution resume.

 

[BayernFan]

Guy must've seen Saving Private Ryan

Best part of the movie is the last battle, especially with the 20 mm. And of course the Waffen SS would use it against infantry and not aircraft, total psychopaths.

Spoiler: 20 mm

 

[Seven]

I’m thinking that what is needed, more and more, is UN peacekeepers in Gaza. An Israeli occupation isn’t that, and never will be. I know Israel distrusts the UN, but a multinational UN peacekeeping force is probably far and way the best option for having this conflict cease, without Hamas being able to just take advantage of it to regroup and make more October 7th style attacks. It also allows for Hamas removed from power and disarmed, and allows aid to actually reach those who need it. And while this would obviously be a no go from Israel, the West Bank should also have Israeli forces/police removed and another UN peacekeeping force brought in while negotiations for a new two state solution resume.

I see a couple of issues though:

1. No country is ever keen on UN peacekeepers on its territory or even nearby. It must be like having your kid over from its mother with a court mandated assistant nearby.

2. It would be an expensive and perilous operation for the UN. I think South Sudan costs about 1 billion dollars a year. And perilous because.. well.. let us just say that the UN peacekeepers don't have the best record when it comes to preventing genocide.

3. I don't believe this Israeli government wants a peaceful solution. They gain from this conflict. And I think there are quite a few Israeli officials who would much rather just annex Gaza.

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[Post Ironic]

I see a couple of issues though:

1. No country is ever keen on UN peacekeepers on its territory or even nearby. It must be like having your kid over from its mother with a court mandated assistant nearby.

2. It would be an expensive and perilous operation for the UN. I think South Sudan costs about 1 billion dollars a year. And perilous because.. well.. let us just say that the UN peacekeepers don't have the best record when it comes to preventing genocide.

3. I don't believe this Israeli government wants a peaceful solution. They gain from this conflict. And I think there are quite a few Israeli officials who would much rather just annex Gaza.

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I don’t disagree with any of this. The Israeli government distrusts the UN, distrusts the idea of Palestinian sovereignty that isn’t kept forcibly demilitarized by Israeli security forces, and is held hostage to some extent by the massive illegal settlements that have already happened

I also think Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and Iran-backed proxies are desperate for this conflict to continue as it stops the more forward thinking Arab and Islamic nations from normalizing relations with Israel.

So you have two sides who both see a continued conflict as beneficial.

Conversely, I don’t see how this conflict comes to a truly peaceful resolution any time in the next decade or so without independent and multinational peacekeeping/enforcement. And that’s a major problem.