the realist thread (2 Viewers)

[Amaurisimo]

Salman said that Ranieri restored some respect for Juventus. That is not true. Just look at how Mourinho toys with him every weekend, how now the majority of the supporters have lost any respect for him, and how the players are seemingly tired of the manager as well. And worst of all, his general comments to the media are that of defeat, which I'm sure our detractors out there love hear.

It's a joke what Salman said, and totally not true whatsoever. The complete opposite actually.

you are really joke if you think that Jose is more "loved" by media and others..

Most of the coaches actually don't have any respect for Jose because of his BS comments and respects for others..

 

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[Oggy]

I judge him by his decisions and then by results.

So you would rather have coach who makes good decisions and get us relegated??

 

[Bjerknes]

So you would rather have coach who makes good decisions and get us relegated??

Good one.

 

[HelterSkelter]

Yes, your typical answer.

I judge him by his decisions and then by results.

Don't agree, but that's all I'll say because there's no point in discussing things with you. Nobody will change their opinions.

It's just particularly two-faced how one can sit here and Ranieri needs to go but still defend what the guy did. It's nonsensical.

The decisions he makes are made to lead to results that both he,and every Juventus fan out there wants.

Are you seriously implying that the results matter less to you than the manner in which they are achieved?

Yes i will defend what Ranieri did,barring a few exceptions.He has done the job he had to go,and he wont be able to take Juventus to the next level.This isnt rocket science Andy,and im sure you get it.He was never going to be the coach to take Juventus to trophies.He was always going to be someone in for a temporary phase,to lay a foundation.And he's done his job.Therefore he should leave.

 

[Bjerknes]

you are really joke if you think that Jose is more "loved" by media and others..

Most of the coaches actually don't have any respect for Jose because of his BS comments and respects for others..

I didn't say any of that, by the way.

 

[Oggy]

Good one.

But you've said that, you judge coach first by his decision and than by results.

However noone is praising Ranieri like he is our blessin while everyone else sucks, but still it's unfair to hold Ranieri as only responsible for our results. He had his chance, did solid job, brought us farest he could and now we should say goodbye to him and find another coach who will take us to a next level. It's simple as that.

 

[Bisco]

i was talking with my cousin who is a die hard arsenal fan and he brought my attention to sth that the majority if not all of us dont have in our books. he told me u guys are ( juve fans) are pissed off at ranirie and want him out which is yr right but dont u think he deserves to be given a fair chance just like at any other club or would u rather do it the real madrid way of sacking coaches every season whether they win u trophies or not.

he back up his argument with an example that makes perfect sense, he told me look at arsenal they have'nt won anything since the fa cup in 2005 yet 4 years later we still have'nt won anything but weneger is still here. he is here because we fans give him a chance to build a team capable of competing with the elite teams in europe and the epl. yes most of our players are youngsters and some are average at best but we fans have patience and faith they will develope into super stars and will be even hungrier for success.

another example which really comes close to our situation is Sir Alex ferguson he was appointed as manager at man utd on the 6th of november 1986 and his first trophy or success with man utd was on may 2nd 1993!! it toke him 8 years to win sth with man utd and if u read his biography u will realize that there were seasons when united came 11th in the league table but they did'nt fire him they gave him a chance to finish his project or the idea in his mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson

here is the link to back up all the things i said about Sir alex ferguson.

now the problem is we have no patience and for some reason we tend to forget were we were three years ago and the price we paid for it. i'm not defending this board in any way they r not doing a great job but i think ranirie deserves to have his full chance to prove us wrong.

i'm not saying he should stay but lets face it we will be in the same place even if we hire spalletti and he fails to get us silver ware bec we simpley dont give who ever manages us some time. i believe that its takes, players, the coaches tactics, and a massive degree of settlement for a team to win any trophy let it be a league title or the champions league. teams are built in parts u never see a team built over night, even if we do like the real madrid of ronaldo, figo, zidane, becks, etc etc they did'nt win anything back then.

its just an idea i'm not attacking any one or saying they dont know anythign about football but i believe a team needs to be built with time and we should'nt be ina race against time when we have a team that was built and gelled out well we would be unstopable whether we have ranirie or we have conte etc .

 

[Amaurisimo]

I didn't say any of that, by the way.

u said how Jose toys with CR every time..

that to me shows that he doesn't have respect for his colleague's..and cos of that Inter is even more hated club

 

[HelterSkelter]

PS and Sal, please drop the lame took the team from serie B line,
we were never a serie B team, there has never ever been such a competitive serie b team...

Its not a lame argument.It's not about competition alone.Its about where the club stood after coming back into Serie A.You cannot ignore that.This argument,should,and always will be,used to defend Ranieri and Deschamps.Teams have gotten gotten screwed over in larger proportions than us due to relegations,and you cannot take that lightly,regardless of how strong a team we were in Serei B.

 

[Bjerknes]

The decisions he makes are made to lead to results that both he,and every Juventus fan out there wants.

Are you seriously implying that the results matter less to you than the manner in which they are achieved?

No, I'm saying that if there is a rhyme or reason behind how the team takes the field and what substitutions are made, generally the team will do well granted the players do their jobs. The results of course matter, but also the way they are achieved matter.

I'm a believer that past events form future trends. When I have been vocal about how poorly the team has played, nobody cared because we were winning. Well, it's my view that if the team isn't performing well, we set ourselves up for future failures, which has happened recently and earlier in the season.

Some people just care about the win on one occasion, but I try to look at the bigger picture.

Now, before any smart asses say, "would you prefer to lose if we play poorly," the answer is no, so don't even think about it.

 

[Oggy]

I'm a believer that past events form future trends. When I have been vocal about how poorly the team has played, nobody cared because we were winning. Well, it's my view that if the team isn't performing well, we set ourselves up for future failures, which has happened recently and earlier in the season.

Some people just care about the win on one occasion, but I try to look at the bigger picture.

Now, before any smart asses say, "would you prefer to lose if we play poorly," the answer is no, so don't even think about it.

I see what are you trying to say, and let's take Catania game for example, we managed to draw but we played like shit. But also even with Capello or Lippi we sometimes played like shit and managed to win thanks to a lucky goal or smth like that. It's part of the game, and it's well known that many big clubs win their games even when they play bad, that's what makes the difference betwen them and small clubs.

However it's not acceptable to play like shit for 3-4 games in a row and don't do anything about it.

 

[BillyG]

i was talking with my cousin who is a die hard arsenal fan and he brought my attention to sth that the majority if not all of us dont have in our books. he told me u guys are ( juve fans) are pissed off at ranirie and want him out which is yr right but dont u think he deserves to be given a fair chance just like at any other club or would u rather do it the real madrid way of sacking coaches every season whether they win u trophies or not.

he back up his argument with an example that makes perfect sense, he told me look at arsenal they have'nt won anything since the fa cup in 2005 yet 4 years later we still have'nt won anything but weneger is still here. he is here because we fans give him a chance to build a team capable of competing with the elite teams in europe and the epl. yes most of our players are youngsters and some are average at best but we fans have patience and faith they will develope into super stars and will be even hungrier for success.

another example which really comes close to our situation is Sir Alex ferguson he was appointed as manager at man utd on the 6th of november 1986 and his first trophy or success with man utd was on may 2nd 1993!! it toke him 8 years to win sth with man utd and if u read his biography u will realize that there were seasons when united came 11th in the league table but they did'nt fire him they gave him a chance to finish his project or the idea in his mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson

here is the link to back up all the things i said about Sir alex ferguson.

now the problem is we have no patience and for some reason we tend to forget were we were three years ago and the price we paid for it. i'm not defending this board in any way they r not doing a great job but i think ranirie deserves to have his full chance to prove us wrong.

i'm not saying he should stay but lets face it we will be in the same place even if we hire spalletti and he fails to get us silver ware bec we simpley dont give who ever manages us some time. i believe that its takes, players, the coaches tactics, and a massive degree of settlement for a team to win any trophy let it be a league title or the champions league. teams are built in parts u never see a team built over night, even if we do like the real madrid of ronaldo, figo, zidane, becks, etc etc they did'nt win anything back then.

its just an idea i'm not attacking any one or saying they dont know anythign about football but i believe a team needs to be built with time and we should'nt be ina race against time when we have a team that was built and gelled out well we would be unstopable whether we have ranirie or we have conte etc .

ur examples are all well & good but note before 2005 arsenal had won every competition on offer to them bar CL under wenger.....this alone has afforded him the time now and the faith of the fans to continue with his project.

as for SAF, when he took over they had not won the league since '67 which mean that they were not really accustomed to winning bar the FA cup the season b4 fergie was hired. fergie also came from a winning background where he had won the scottish league and the cup winner's cup. so again he may have bought his time. yeh it's true he had a troubled start, but at least during the darkest hr he was able to turn the ship round, the mark of winner.

can u realistically see ranieri turning our ship around? how can u lead a team to success when u urself have never been?

 

[sateeh]

Realistically, qualifying for the champions league and achieving some nice results (à la Real Madrid matches) was all we could ask for.

However, given how the season has evolved, we cannot be satisified with those initial objectives. It was clear that, apart for Inter, other serie A teams have been disappointing.
Therefore, I absolutely understand the fans who are disappointed with how things went. Especially the last month has been an absolute disgrace, not something you can accept from a team called Juventus.

The season is not over yet, and any manager should understand that there is a psychological effect to finish second, on top of Milan, even if that doesn't change a thing regarding CL qualification. Ranieri should fire up the squad to reach this objective; failing this, his future with us can legitimately be put in question.

Completely agree mate, its not only about setting your expectations in stone and leave them for the rest of the season. It has to be more flexible than that. We had the potential to do well but we let ourselves down.

Its not a complete failure, far from it.

This is a good moment to brag.
Unlike those who are now very loud now how they knew it all the time, Dominic and myself said it all in July.
Those who now know everything either didn't say anything in the forecast thread or their predictions were completely wrong.

Here:
http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1700999&postcount=91

Thanks for that, really puts things in perspective.


Now just about the discussion. Ranieri imo has to go because he has lost the faith of the squad, both the old guard and some of the younger players. That is the main point here, he has also been weak tactically and we know that. Also his mental influence was confirmed to be weak and we need to make a step up not simply consolidate.

We have to admit though that he has done fairly well and one could argue that he could've done even better with a better decision making in regards to the player usage and some substitutions. The first point though lies with the management, CR wasn't given the resources to do well. This squad is weak and the injuries compounded the issues. Even if another manager would have done slightly better the sad truth is that this team is completely spent since the Chievo game where all the passion was drained out because we dropped off the pace for the title hunt. That was evident and a huge eye opener.

So what could Ranieri do with a team like that ? Make it as solid as you could and rely on your champions to deliver the goods. That is the main reason Gio wasn't getting more game time. Worked well for a while but it relies on those players being disciplined and motivated to deliver. Recently that has been lost, and thats where its hurting.

The thing that hurts the most though is that we were so close. Even had we drawn the game with Inter and won the games against Chievo, Genoa and Reggina the difference would have been 1 point. I think that is why many people are pissed off more than anything.

 

[Cronios]

3)CR has conducted the team alright.
Yes,this includes Molinaro and the other any other players that get regular crap around here.

Please dont mention Moli, Moli was CR's greatest mistake!

Of course the board is at fault. THEY hired him.

That too!!! Their fault multiplies there!!

u guys are ( juve fans) are pissed off at ranirie and want him out which is yr right but dont u think he deserves to be given a fair chance

He was given a chance and he failed that!! The first year he was given un undeserved credit, because he made some huge mistakes and we only reached were we reached, because our traditional enemies were not as good as they used to be and because of the individual efforts, some of our champions (DP and Neddy mostly) has shown.
They were extra determined to prove themselves and performed beyond expectations. But CR faults were obvious since that year. So we give him another year and he does even worse. We dont have any excuses of getting humiliated from teams like Reggina at this moment.
CR has available a far more superior material and is failing to deliver what he should. We can always find excuses, but things speak by themselves atm...

The saddest thing of all is that some want to use him as a scapegoat, to mask our real problems, our board's policy...

Its not a lame argument.It's not about competition alone.Its about where the club stood after coming back into Serie A.You cannot ignore that.This argument,should,and always will be,used to defend Ranieri and Deschamps.Teams have gotten gotten screwed over in larger proportions than us due to relegations,and you cannot take that lightly,regardless of how strong a team we were in Serei B.

It is a lame argument as you tried to use it in your previous paragraph.
They way you presented it was, like CR took an average serie B team, with unnamed players, jersey and history and reached the top but his sheer tactical skills. Sorry but this is not only lame, but also pathetic!!
Every average coach would have done the same and CR only did his duty, nothing more. Def nothing near the miracle you presented it to be.
This argument has been extremely abused by the CR lovers, only to create that impression, (despite that wasnt your intention)
therefore it should be ignored, because it adds little to our discussion and the important things he has/hasnt accomplished.

If by above paragraph you mean, that we could have suffered much more on prestige and other kind of handicap, that would harm CR's work.
Then i agree with that point, only then we should consider this.
Personally, though, i dont believe that CR has a big say on our strategical choices though.
I never accused him for that and i believe that he is smarter than the ones responsible for those mistakes! It is unfair to blame him for those mistakes and inabilities!

 

[Amaurisimo]

i was talking with my cousin who is a die hard arsenal fan and he brought my attention to sth that the majority if not all of us dont have in our books. he told me u guys are ( juve fans) are pissed off at ranirie and want him out which is yr right but dont u think he deserves to be given a fair chance just like at any other club or would u rather do it the real madrid way of sacking coaches every season whether they win u trophies or not.

he back up his argument with an example that makes perfect sense, he told me look at arsenal they have'nt won anything since the fa cup in 2005 yet 4 years later we still have'nt won anything but weneger is still here. he is here because we fans give him a chance to build a team capable of competing with the elite teams in europe and the epl. yes most of our players are youngsters and some are average at best but we fans have patience and faith they will develope into super stars and will be even hungrier for success.

another example which really comes close to our situation is Sir Alex ferguson he was appointed as manager at man utd on the 6th of november 1986 and his first trophy or success with man utd was on may 2nd 1993!! it toke him 8 years to win sth with man utd and if u read his biography u will realize that there were seasons when united came 11th in the league table but they did'nt fire him they gave him a chance to finish his project or the idea in his mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson

here is the link to back up all the things i said about Sir alex ferguson.

now the problem is we have no patience and for some reason we tend to forget were we were three years ago and the price we paid for it. i'm not defending this board in any way they r not doing a great job but i think ranirie deserves to have his full chance to prove us wrong.

i'm not saying he should stay but lets face it we will be in the same place even if we hire spalletti and he fails to get us silver ware bec we simpley dont give who ever manages us some time. i believe that its takes, players, the coaches tactics, and a massive degree of settlement for a team to win any trophy let it be a league title or the champions league. teams are built in parts u never see a team built over night, even if we do like the real madrid of ronaldo, figo, zidane, becks, etc etc they did'nt win anything back then.

its just an idea i'm not attacking any one or saying they dont know anythign about football but i believe a team needs to be built with time and we should'nt be ina race against time when we have a team that was built and gelled out well we would be unstopable whether we have ranirie or we have conte etc .

top performer

 

[Tomice]

i was talking with my cousin who is a die hard arsenal fan and he brought my attention to sth that the majority if not all of us dont have in our books.....
.

I get your point, but you need to ask yourself this:
Did ranieri gave you any indication that he is on the right way?

 

[Bisco]

ur examples are all well & good but note before 2005 arsenal had won every competition on offer to them bar CL under wenger.....this alone has afforded him the time now and the faith of the fans to continue with his project.

as for SAF, when he took over they had not won the league since '67 which mean that they were not really accustomed to winning bar the FA cup the season b4 fergie was hired. fergie also came from a winning background where he had won the scottish league and the cup winner's cup. so again he may have bought his time. yeh it's true he had a troubled start, but at least during the darkest hr he was able to turn the ship round, the mark of winner.

can u realistically see ranieri turning our ship around? how can u lead a team to success when u urself have never been?

i do agree with u about weneger buying hs time and faith thats true and is very logical when u think about it.

but as for sir alex ferguson he did't really have an easy start at aberdeen either. red can correct me if i'm wrong but he too spent 4 or 5 years with out wining anything over at aberdeen but then when u finished his project and his idea they won. i dont think man utd fan can get accustomed to not wining any trophies. they have the same prestigious history we have and they r always expected to win trophies.

I get your point, but you need to ask yourself this:
Did ranieri gave you any indication that he is on the right way?

in all honesty no, thats my personal opinion and people can feel free to disagree with me. i think with ranirie though we r making the same mistake chelsea did. i do acknowledge mourinho has a much better tactican he is really good but dont u think ranieri would've done the same thing had he stayed on and finished his project? in his last season he came second to arsenal which was un defeated back then. dont u think thats a measure that may be he has what it takes to make build a strong base for his teams his only problem is he is never there to gather his wins? we need to consider that. yes he is def not a good talker like mourinho, and yes his subs are sometimes questionable but so where capello's and lippi's choices.

 

[Red]

but as for sir alex ferguson he did't really have an easy start at aberdeen either. red can correct me if i'm wrong but he too spent 4 or 5 years with out wining anything over at aberdeen but then when u finished his project and his idea they won.

He won the league in his second season at Aberdeen.

 

[Bisco]

He was given a chance and he failed that!! The first year he was given un undeserved credit, because he made some huge mistakes and we only reached were we reached, because our traditional enemies were not as good as they used to be and because of the individual efforts, some of our champions (DP and Neddy mostly) has shown.
They were extra determined to prove themselves and performed beyond expectations. But CR faults were obvious since that year. So we give him another year and he does even worse. We dont have any excuses of getting humiliated from teams like Reggina at this moment.
CR has available a far more superior material and is failing to deliver what he should. We can always find excuses, but things speak by themselves atm...

ok he was given his chance in his first season, and he failed and the only reason we ended up finishing third is bec of neddy and dp i will give u that, although i think its not fair to use that bec these players are not the only ones playing it take more than two world class players to win us games. he failed his second season, i think that too is not very accurate bec up until last month we were doing alright and the down fall hit us starting with chievo's game.

cronios do u think had this team been under any one things would've been different? put in mind the same circumstances, i,e the transfers we got, the player mistakes, our injuries, and our match scedule and tell me yr opinion about that.

 

[Bisco]

He won the league in his second season at Aberdeen.

thank u andy, i mis-read the paragraph that was describing his time at aberdeen.