Then let them get RID of it using another land as a base. Isn't Syria their sponsor? Then let them do it from there and leave my land alone.
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The Lebanese political crisis!!! (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter JCK
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I never said I was a Aoun supporter, I was just showing an example of Hezballah extending their hand for reconciliation with a Christian za3eem for alliance.
Even before Hariri's death, Nasrallah and Rafic Hariri (God bless his soul) were becoming close allies.
I don't understand this visualisation of evil that you people have of Hezballah.
I'm not saying I want a constant war with Israel, and that Souriya should be our shakika...
On the contrary, I want normalised relations with Israel, but not to the extent that I want to see them walking around Beirut like they do in Sharm el Sheikh. Hezballah know and acknowledge the fact that Israel are here to stay whether we like it or not.
This is an issue of TRUST and SECURITY. How can you TRUST Israel? How can you trust a regime that has gotten away with dozens of UN resolutions that are ignored, and is constantly given a green light by the USA to do whatever it wants? Who knows, what if Israel has a secret expansionist regime (Eretz Israel, or Israeel el Koubra...Greater Israel) that includes the "Nile to the Euphrates" Zionist prophecy? How can you trust them, when they are STILL building territories in Occupied Palestine?
You think it's ridiculous and I'm talking out of my ass? Fine, I think it's JUST as ridiculous to claim that Hezballah are terrorists who want a Khomeinist regime and want to takeover Lebanon.
And I know what you're going to say - why do some Lebanese care about Palestine more than Lebanon? That's not the case. We have half a million of those refugees, who (by Hezballah's blessing BY THE WAY) are not allowed to be granted citizenship, and to an extent cannot pursue certain jobs. This is to promote the Palestinian's right for return...something which Israel fears. Have you seen the conditions of those camps they're living in?
As for them being Palestinians and Syrians down there in the demo...I'm not there at the moment to tell (I was never in Lebanon during any of the major demo's, or murders incl. Feb 14 2005), maybe Stripper (waynak ya zalameh???) can clear up the picture for us on the current demonstrations. (note - Stripper is not a Shi'a Muslim, and we do not think on the same political POV...except when it comes to Juve and Italy...and playstation, and picking up hot chicks
)
Speaking of which, since you claim that most of these demonstrators that are in Beirut right now are non Lebanese - what about those who rioted in Achrafieh during the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) cartoon controversy?
Do you suddenly decide which event is more appropriate whenever you feel like pointing fingers?
As for Bachir Gemayel, I'm gonna have to agree with you (and disagree with ReBeL) and say yes it was Syria that did it. The motive was obvious: Israel and LF were gaining power, and Bachir was a key actor in the relationship between the two sides. If Lebanon and Israel became strong allies, Syria would've had the tables turned against them in dramatic fashion, creating another Arab defeat, a strategic Israeli victory with them literally having the most influence against a war-torn and vulnerable Lebanon under the rubble......
To be honest, I don't know what would've been better, a Syrian or an Israeli hegemonic influence? Tneneton anyak min ba3d...and I think we'll both agree on that as well. anyway, that's in the past........
Even before Hariri's death, Nasrallah and Rafic Hariri (God bless his soul) were becoming close allies.
I don't understand this visualisation of evil that you people have of Hezballah.
I'm not saying I want a constant war with Israel, and that Souriya should be our shakika...
On the contrary, I want normalised relations with Israel, but not to the extent that I want to see them walking around Beirut like they do in Sharm el Sheikh. Hezballah know and acknowledge the fact that Israel are here to stay whether we like it or not.
This is an issue of TRUST and SECURITY. How can you TRUST Israel? How can you trust a regime that has gotten away with dozens of UN resolutions that are ignored, and is constantly given a green light by the USA to do whatever it wants? Who knows, what if Israel has a secret expansionist regime (Eretz Israel, or Israeel el Koubra...Greater Israel) that includes the "Nile to the Euphrates" Zionist prophecy? How can you trust them, when they are STILL building territories in Occupied Palestine?
You think it's ridiculous and I'm talking out of my ass? Fine, I think it's JUST as ridiculous to claim that Hezballah are terrorists who want a Khomeinist regime and want to takeover Lebanon.
And I know what you're going to say - why do some Lebanese care about Palestine more than Lebanon? That's not the case. We have half a million of those refugees, who (by Hezballah's blessing BY THE WAY) are not allowed to be granted citizenship, and to an extent cannot pursue certain jobs. This is to promote the Palestinian's right for return...something which Israel fears. Have you seen the conditions of those camps they're living in?
As for them being Palestinians and Syrians down there in the demo...I'm not there at the moment to tell (I was never in Lebanon during any of the major demo's, or murders incl. Feb 14 2005), maybe Stripper (waynak ya zalameh???) can clear up the picture for us on the current demonstrations. (note - Stripper is not a Shi'a Muslim, and we do not think on the same political POV...except when it comes to Juve and Italy...and playstation, and picking up hot chicks
)Speaking of which, since you claim that most of these demonstrators that are in Beirut right now are non Lebanese - what about those who rioted in Achrafieh during the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) cartoon controversy?
Do you suddenly decide which event is more appropriate whenever you feel like pointing fingers?
As for Bachir Gemayel, I'm gonna have to agree with you (and disagree with ReBeL) and say yes it was Syria that did it. The motive was obvious: Israel and LF were gaining power, and Bachir was a key actor in the relationship between the two sides. If Lebanon and Israel became strong allies, Syria would've had the tables turned against them in dramatic fashion, creating another Arab defeat, a strategic Israeli victory with them literally having the most influence against a war-torn and vulnerable Lebanon under the rubble......
To be honest, I don't know what would've been better, a Syrian or an Israeli hegemonic influence? Tneneton anyak min ba3d...and I think we'll both agree on that as well. anyway, that's in the past........
Of course It benefits Syria and Iran. And I'm not going to repeat why.
Nasrallah saying he doesn't want a khomeinist thats because he can't do It. It's as simple as that.
And about Extending his hand with the Michel Aoun, thats all BS. Nasrallah knew that he can't do thing on his own without a Christian hand, now that Aoun returned in-order to look for his Chair, he accepeted Hezbollah hand.
About your last line, I'm not going to reply on you. I want this thread to remain clean.
Who said Israel loves Lebanon? They didn't bomb without a reason.
FFS, since when do you follow Lebanese politics, even Nasrallah said It, that they were preparing for this war from 8months. Nasrallah knew what was going to happen, yet he went to kidnapp Two soldiers without taking permission for our gov.
As If he's the president and can take decisions whenever he wants.
There are 3Lebanese hostages in Israel and over 15.000 Lebanese hostages in Syria. But of course, Hezbollah wouldn't ask for these thousands of Lebanese hostages...thanks to his relationship with syria
You mean Arms that killed all these Children? shows who's the blinded here.
Nasrallah saying he doesn't want a khomeinist thats because he can't do It. It's as simple as that.
And about Extending his hand with the Michel Aoun, thats all BS. Nasrallah knew that he can't do thing on his own without a Christian hand, now that Aoun returned in-order to look for his Chair, he accepeted Hezbollah hand.
About your last line, I'm not going to reply on you. I want this thread to remain clean.
Who said Israel loves Lebanon? They didn't bomb without a reason.
FFS, since when do you follow Lebanese politics, even Nasrallah said It, that they were preparing for this war from 8months. Nasrallah knew what was going to happen, yet he went to kidnapp Two soldiers without taking permission for our gov.
As If he's the president and can take decisions whenever he wants.
There are 3Lebanese hostages in Israel and over 15.000 Lebanese hostages in Syria. But of course, Hezbollah wouldn't ask for these thousands of Lebanese hostages...thanks to his relationship with syria
You mean Arms that killed all these Children? shows who's the blinded here.
Rhizoid said:
I never said I was a Aoun supporter, I was just showing an example of Hezballah extending their hand for reconciliation with a Christian za3eem for alliance.
Even before Hariri's death, Nasrallah and Rafic Hariri (God bless his soul) were becoming close allies.
I don't understand this visualisation of evil that you people have of Hezballah.
I'm not saying I want a constant war with Israel, and that Souriya should be our shakika...
On the contrary, I want normalised relations with Israel, but not to the extent that I want to see them walking around Beirut like they do in Sharm el Sheikh. Hezballah know and acknowledge the fact that Israel are here to stay whether we like it or not.
This is an issue of TRUST and SECURITY. How can you TRUST Israel? How can you trust a regime that has gotten away with dozens of UN resolutions that are ignored, and is constantly given a green light by the USA to do whatever it wants? Who knows, what if Israel has a secret expansionist regime (Eretz Israel, or Israeel el Koubra...Greater Israel) that includes the "Nile to the Euphrates" Zionist prophecy? How can you trust them, when they are STILL building territories in Occupied Palestine?
You think it's ridiculous and I'm talking out of my ass? Fine, I think it's JUST as ridiculous to claim that Hezballah are terrorists who want a Khomeinist regime and want to takeover Lebanon.
And I know what you're going to say - why do some Lebanese care about Palestine more than Lebanon? That's not the case. We have half a million of those refugees, who (by Hezballah's blessing BY THE WAY) are not allowed to be granted citizenship, and to an extent cannot pursue certain jobs. This is to promote the Palestinian's right for return...something which Israel fears. Have you seen the conditions of those camps they're living in?
As for them being Palestinians and Syrians down there in the demo...I'm not there at the moment to tell (I was never in Lebanon during any of the major demo's, or murders incl. Feb 14 2005), maybe Stripper (waynak ya zalameh???) can clear up the picture for us on the current demonstrations. (note - Stripper is not a Shi'a Muslim, and we do not think on the same political POV...except when it comes to Juve and Italy...and playstation, and picking up hot chicks )
Speaking of which, since you claim that most of these demonstrators that are in Beirut right now are non Lebanese - what about those who rioted in Achrafieh during the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) cartoon controversy?
Do you suddenly decide which event is more appropriate whenever you feel like pointing fingers?
As for Bachir Gemayel, I'm gonna have to agree with you (and disagree with ReBeL) and say yes it was Syria that did it. The motive was obvious: Israel and LF were gaining power, and Bachir was a key actor in the relationship between the two sides. If Lebanon and Israel became strong allies, Syria would've had the tables turned against them in dramatic fashion, creating another Arab defeat, a strategic Israeli victory with them literally having the most influence against a war-torn and vulnerable Lebanon under the rubble......
To be honest, I don't know what would've been better, a Syrian or an Israeli hegemonic influence? Tneneton anyak min ba3d...and I think we'll both agree on that as well. anyway, that's in the past........
Even before Hariri's death, Nasrallah and Rafic Hariri (God bless his soul) were becoming close allies.
I don't understand this visualisation of evil that you people have of Hezballah.
I'm not saying I want a constant war with Israel, and that Souriya should be our shakika...
On the contrary, I want normalised relations with Israel, but not to the extent that I want to see them walking around Beirut like they do in Sharm el Sheikh. Hezballah know and acknowledge the fact that Israel are here to stay whether we like it or not.
This is an issue of TRUST and SECURITY. How can you TRUST Israel? How can you trust a regime that has gotten away with dozens of UN resolutions that are ignored, and is constantly given a green light by the USA to do whatever it wants? Who knows, what if Israel has a secret expansionist regime (Eretz Israel, or Israeel el Koubra...Greater Israel) that includes the "Nile to the Euphrates" Zionist prophecy? How can you trust them, when they are STILL building territories in Occupied Palestine?
You think it's ridiculous and I'm talking out of my ass? Fine, I think it's JUST as ridiculous to claim that Hezballah are terrorists who want a Khomeinist regime and want to takeover Lebanon.
And I know what you're going to say - why do some Lebanese care about Palestine more than Lebanon? That's not the case. We have half a million of those refugees, who (by Hezballah's blessing BY THE WAY) are not allowed to be granted citizenship, and to an extent cannot pursue certain jobs. This is to promote the Palestinian's right for return...something which Israel fears. Have you seen the conditions of those camps they're living in?
As for them being Palestinians and Syrians down there in the demo...I'm not there at the moment to tell (I was never in Lebanon during any of the major demo's, or murders incl. Feb 14 2005), maybe Stripper (waynak ya zalameh???) can clear up the picture for us on the current demonstrations. (note - Stripper is not a Shi'a Muslim, and we do not think on the same political POV...except when it comes to Juve and Italy...and playstation, and picking up hot chicks
)Speaking of which, since you claim that most of these demonstrators that are in Beirut right now are non Lebanese - what about those who rioted in Achrafieh during the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) cartoon controversy?
Do you suddenly decide which event is more appropriate whenever you feel like pointing fingers?
As for Bachir Gemayel, I'm gonna have to agree with you (and disagree with ReBeL) and say yes it was Syria that did it. The motive was obvious: Israel and LF were gaining power, and Bachir was a key actor in the relationship between the two sides. If Lebanon and Israel became strong allies, Syria would've had the tables turned against them in dramatic fashion, creating another Arab defeat, a strategic Israeli victory with them literally having the most influence against a war-torn and vulnerable Lebanon under the rubble......
To be honest, I don't know what would've been better, a Syrian or an Israeli hegemonic influence? Tneneton anyak min ba3d...and I think we'll both agree on that as well. anyway, that's in the past........
Hariri and Nasralla were getting friends but when Hariri opposed Syria, we all know what happened.
The normalized relationships with Israel that you want and I want and Syria not being skakika will not happen with Hezballa's current power. They try their best not to have it, just to keep Syria happy by keeping Lebanon a war zone with Israel and keeping their privileges in Lebanon.
We all know that the cartoon demonstrations were not carried out by Lebanese. A Lebanese Muslim would not destroy a church. So the pointing of fingers was right pointed.
The purpose of this post is not to rebuttle or argue about who's right and wrong, just an assessment of Lebanese society and situation so far - and to put things into perspective for the foreigners here before the shout Jewish, Islamist, or American Conspiracy.......
Lebanon's 1975-1991 civil war was based on a sectarian domination. In the mid to late 1970s (and possibly early 80s) there was the famous habit of Sectarian identity killings, whereby a military check point would ask the driver to reveal his identity papers and either kill him (and the passengers too) if he was of the "wrong" sect.
This was done by all sides. I don't know who started it...some say it was the Palestinians who started the trend, and the rest of the militia's followed suit. The first incident happened in 1974 (before the war) when a man refused to stop at the check point and was machine gunned immediately afterward.
The war went thru 3 or 4 phases, and each phase brought with it political parties, elite individuals and personalities who all eventually were granted a "pardon" under the Taif accords (although there is no mention of this pardon in the actual document).
That was in 1991.....everyone had their own space, and people minded their own business....probably the last scuffles or shootouts happened in 1992 (some history books will say the war ended then). South Lebanon was still at war though, since it was occupied by Israel. The rest of it was indirectly occupied by Syria. All our administrative decisions, laws, policies etc...had to be "Syria-friendly" in order for them to be implemented.
* * *
Fast forward to 2006. Lebanon had prospered thru-out the 1990s in terms of regaining stability, and for it to become a tourist hot-spot in the summer for people to enjoy the beaches (and the hot chicks that lay there :toast: ) and in the winter for various Europeans who enjoyed the wonderful skiing season. (I bumped into a Belgian skiier while going up on the ski-lift, and he told me that the facilities we had were beyond his expectations 
)
Right...back on topic. I've spared you thru ALOT (and believe me when I say ALOT 1991-2006) of details since that time........[EDIT] but instead of writing a huge column full of details just to explain this very simple point, I'd never finish. So here it is:
Lebanon has changed the type of rivalry it had since the 1970s (and even 1960s, the Palestinian cause, and the breakdown of the state). The mid 2000s have given birth to a new mindset of people who have overcome shallow and racist sectarianism, yet have been divided over political ideology.
Now you have two sets of Christians, both Maronite (eastern Catholics) who are divided from within and have different political ideologies for what they believe is for a better Lebanon.
The same applies for each and every other Sect - Sunni Muslim, Shi'a Muslim, and the Druze. (and the Armenian, and the Orthodox as well)
We no longer have identity killings as we did before...it's just become a huge mess now, with limitless political bickering in public and on national TV.
Some might say, well isn't this more politically "healthy" for a country? Isn't the USA like that, supposedly the world's "exemplary archetype" of a democracy where the people have the freedom to choose what they believe in the right to excercise those beliefs?
Just curious by what the other Lebanese here think about this? (not being sarcastic here -people who know me tend to suspect me of that- this is supposed to be an objective post whereby I'm merely writing my own observation on our society)
Lebanon's 1975-1991 civil war was based on a sectarian domination. In the mid to late 1970s (and possibly early 80s) there was the famous habit of Sectarian identity killings, whereby a military check point would ask the driver to reveal his identity papers and either kill him (and the passengers too) if he was of the "wrong" sect.
This was done by all sides. I don't know who started it...some say it was the Palestinians who started the trend, and the rest of the militia's followed suit. The first incident happened in 1974 (before the war) when a man refused to stop at the check point and was machine gunned immediately afterward.
The war went thru 3 or 4 phases, and each phase brought with it political parties, elite individuals and personalities who all eventually were granted a "pardon" under the Taif accords (although there is no mention of this pardon in the actual document).
That was in 1991.....everyone had their own space, and people minded their own business....probably the last scuffles or shootouts happened in 1992 (some history books will say the war ended then). South Lebanon was still at war though, since it was occupied by Israel. The rest of it was indirectly occupied by Syria. All our administrative decisions, laws, policies etc...had to be "Syria-friendly" in order for them to be implemented.
* * *
Fast forward to 2006. Lebanon had prospered thru-out the 1990s in terms of regaining stability, and for it to become a tourist hot-spot in the summer for people to enjoy the beaches (and the hot chicks that lay there :toast: ) and in the winter for various Europeans who enjoyed the wonderful skiing season.
(I bumped into a Belgian skiier while going up on the ski-lift, and he told me that the facilities we had were beyond his expectations )Right...back on topic. I've spared you thru ALOT (and believe me when I say ALOT 1991-2006) of details since that time........[EDIT] but instead of writing a huge column full of details just to explain this very simple point, I'd never finish. So here it is:
Lebanon has changed the type of rivalry it had since the 1970s (and even 1960s, the Palestinian cause, and the breakdown of the state). The mid 2000s have given birth to a new mindset of people who have overcome shallow and racist sectarianism, yet have been divided over political ideology.
Now you have two sets of Christians, both Maronite (eastern Catholics) who are divided from within and have different political ideologies for what they believe is for a better Lebanon.
The same applies for each and every other Sect - Sunni Muslim, Shi'a Muslim, and the Druze. (and the Armenian, and the Orthodox as well)
We no longer have identity killings as we did before...it's just become a huge mess now, with limitless political bickering in public and on national TV.
Some might say, well isn't this more politically "healthy" for a country? Isn't the USA like that, supposedly the world's "exemplary archetype" of a democracy where the people have the freedom to choose what they believe in the right to excercise those beliefs?
Just curious by what the other Lebanese here think about this? (not being sarcastic here -people who know me tend to suspect me of that- this is supposed to be an objective post whereby I'm merely writing my own observation on our society)
These are bad times to bring up analogies like this. I know what you're getting at. But you also have to realize we are in a political climate of red and blue states where Texas seems like an entirely different country from here... part of "Jesusfreakland", and a species entirely foreign to the locals.
Yes, certainly. But how many former empires do we still have lying around these days, anyway? It's a fact of history that's not unique to the Arab world by any means.
People can look back to the great Pharoes of Egypt, the Minoans, Assyria, the great Chinese dynasties of the past, the Inca Empire and Mayans, the Portuguese trading empire, the Spanish, the Dutch, and yes, even the more recent British Empire. But those days are gone, and you cannot set the clock back.
History, culture, and political structures are heavily interwoven here. It doesn't make the past any less glorious and the present any less painful for some. But you also have to learn how to live in the present day too, and you ignore a lot of equally valid history that lead to the present day if you focus only on specific parts of the past.
People can be nostalgic for the Roman Empire in its heyday. But Rome existed in the 1600s as well, and those ancestors and historical figures are no less worthy of respect and remembrance. Even if a lot of people want to lock Rome as permanently stuck in some time in the ancient past.
Yes, certainly. But how many former empires do we still have lying around these days, anyway? It's a fact of history that's not unique to the Arab world by any means.
People can look back to the great Pharoes of Egypt, the Minoans, Assyria, the great Chinese dynasties of the past, the Inca Empire and Mayans, the Portuguese trading empire, the Spanish, the Dutch, and yes, even the more recent British Empire. But those days are gone, and you cannot set the clock back.
History, culture, and political structures are heavily interwoven here. It doesn't make the past any less glorious and the present any less painful for some. But you also have to learn how to live in the present day too, and you ignore a lot of equally valid history that lead to the present day if you focus only on specific parts of the past.
People can be nostalgic for the Roman Empire in its heyday. But Rome existed in the 1600s as well, and those ancestors and historical figures are no less worthy of respect and remembrance. Even if a lot of people want to lock Rome as permanently stuck in some time in the ancient past.
First off - I'm sorry about that, didn't mean it to sound that way, obviously I was quite tense while writing it.....int:
Secondly, @ both Jacques and Rabea I've said what I've had to, and I stand by it...I have these arguments on other forums, chat sessions, and face to face at least twice a week for a past year.
Once my dad and another fellow Shi'a Lebanese colleague had a similar disagreement at a hotel here in Dubai a couple months back while we were having lunch. Needless to say when both of them smashed their fists on the table and began cursing and arguing out loud.......I had to force the both of them to calm down.
We Lebanese all see our side of the story, with a somewhat skewed or inaccurate or suspectful POV of the other side of the story. We love conspiracies, finger pointing, shifting blame, making accusations and highlighting hypocrisy. People (politicians) are judged by their past, and some people are not willing to overlook that. (i.e. my views toward Geagea or Leb Forces; or your your views toward Hezballah and Nasralla par exemple)
Each murder, each demonstration, each speech-rally is just fuelling the fire of ideology, and we've all become so encompassed by it that is causes all of these bizarre reactions. I'm not saying this is wrong. Fuck, we can't just sit there and do nothing while our politicians are being assassinated. Wait....let me guess, you both think that's pretty rich coming from a pro-Hezballah supporter.
And the vicious cycle continues...I think I said it before, I doubt this cabinet will resign, and these people are wasting their time. Hezballah should retain their honor and engage in dialogue again. (even tho Nasrallah has literally begged them on numerous occasions.....wooopss here we go again)
int:Secondly, @ both Jacques and Rabea I've said what I've had to, and I stand by it...I have these arguments on other forums, chat sessions, and face to face at least twice a week for a past year.
Once my dad and another fellow Shi'a Lebanese colleague had a similar disagreement at a hotel here in Dubai a couple months back while we were having lunch. Needless to say when both of them smashed their fists on the table and began cursing and arguing out loud...
....I had to force the both of them to calm down.We Lebanese all see our side of the story, with a somewhat skewed or inaccurate or suspectful POV of the other side of the story. We love conspiracies, finger pointing, shifting blame, making accusations and highlighting hypocrisy. People (politicians) are judged by their past, and some people are not willing to overlook that. (i.e. my views toward Geagea or Leb Forces; or your your views toward Hezballah and Nasralla par exemple)
Each murder, each demonstration, each speech-rally is just fuelling the fire of ideology, and we've all become so encompassed by it that is causes all of these bizarre reactions. I'm not saying this is wrong. Fuck, we can't just sit there and do nothing while our politicians are being assassinated. Wait....let me guess, you both think that's pretty rich coming from a pro-Hezballah supporter.
And the vicious cycle continues...I think I said it before, I doubt this cabinet will resign, and these people are wasting their time. Hezballah should retain their honor and engage in dialogue again. (even tho Nasrallah has literally begged them on numerous occasions.....wooopss here we go again)