Shocking ! (8 Viewers)

[Vinman]

... it is better.

I'm sorry...do you live there ??

do you have friends who work in their health system, or better yet, do you have family who lives there, and must use their health system ??

I do, and believe me, its much worse

 

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[Vinman]

I'll post this again, since you didnt bother to read it the first time...its 100% true

Subject: Health Care in Canada

This comes from a friend of a career Marine, who just happens to be a
Canadian. His thoughts on the recent health care proposal might be of
interest to some. .

Hey Guys; I saw on the news up here in Canada where Hillary Clinton
introduced her new health care plan. Something similar to what we have in
Canada. I also heard that Michael Moore was raving about the health care
up here in Canada in his latest movie. As your friend and someone who
lives with the Canada health care plan I thought I would give you some
facts about this great medical plan that we have in Canada.

First of all:
1) The health care plan in Canada is not free. We pay a premium every
month of $96. for Shirley and I to be covered. Sounds great eh? What they
don't tell you is how much we pay in taxes to keep the health care system
afloat. I am personally in the 55% tax bracket. Yes 55% of my earnings
go to taxes. A large portion of that and I am not sure of the exact amount
goes directly to health care - our #1 expense.

2) I would not classify what we have as health care plan, it is more
like a health diagnosis system. You can get into to see a doctor quick
enough so he can tell you 'yes indeed you are sick or you need an operation' but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.

3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is
to prescribe drugs. Have a pain - here is a drug to take - not what is
causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out because it is
more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government reimbursement


4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor.

5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the
emergency room waiting for treatment.


6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it
required that his hand be put in a splint - to our surprise we had to pay
$125 for a splint because it is not covered under health care plus we
have to pay $60 for each visit for him to check it out each week.

7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a
waiting list. Died before he could get treatment.

8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no
more operations, unless you go to your local newspaper and plead your
case and embarrass the government then money suddenly appears.

9) The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are
increasing the funding for health care but waiting lists never get
shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem but it
never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but
they don't call it a tax anymore it is now a user fee.

10) My mother needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but because
she is a smoker they will not do it. Despite her and my father paying
into the health care system all these years. My Mom is 80 years of age. Now
there is talk that maybe we should not treat fat and obese people either
because they are a drain on the health care system. Let me see now, what
we want in Canada is a health care system for healthy people only. That
should reduce our health care costs.

11) Forget getting a second opinion, what you see is what you get.

12) I can spend what money I have left after taxes on booze, cigarettes,
junk food and anything else that could kill me but I am not allowed by
law to spend my money on getting an operation I need because that would
be jumping the queue. I must wait my turn except if I am a hockey player
or athlete then I can get looked at right away. Go figure.Where else in the world can you spend money to kill yourself but not allowed to spend money to get healthy.

13) Oh did I mention that immigrants are covered automatically at tax
payer expense having never contributed a dollar to the system and pay no
premiums?

14) Oh yeah we now give free needles to drug users to try and keep them
healthy. Wouldn't want a sickly druggie breaking into your house and
stealing your things. But people with diabetes who pay into the health
care system have to pay for their needles because it is not covered by
the health care system. .I send this out not looking for sympathy but as the
election looms in the states you will be hearing more and more about
universal health care down there and the advocates will be pointing to
Canada. I just want to make sure that you hear the truth about health
care up here and have some food for thought and informed questions to ask
when broached with this subject.

 

[Bjerknes]

I'm sorry...do you live there ??

do you have friends who work in their health system, or better yet, do you have family who lives there, and must use their health system ??

I do, and believe me, its much worse

Actually I do, and they share different opinions.

 

[Vinman]

... it is better.

tell that to the husband and family of my 30 year old friend who introduced me to Tia.....she died of a stroke after being transferred to 2 different hospitals, because her local hospital didnt have the facilities to handle a stroke

12 hours later she died on an operating table after a brain hemmorage

if that happened here in Buffalo, when she got to the hospital, they would have treated the stroke propely, and she'd probably be alive today

 

[Lion]

It has it's draw backs for sure, but it's basic idea is that it guarantees that all Canadians will receive health care, regardless of financial ability.

The US system has it's pluses, and negatives as well. But it's far from being perfect.

 

[Vinman]

It has it's draw backs for sure, but it's basic idea is that it guarantees that all Canadians will receive health care, regardless of financial ability.

The US system has it's pluses, and negatives as well. But it's far from being perfect.

what if you need to see a specialist ??

that usually isnt covered in Canada, is it ??

Dental ??

You get better insurance coverage (Gold plan, or something like that) if your occupation offers that, correct ??

Our system isnt perfect, but I think its better

 

[Lion]

oh and Vinny, saying that Health care is Canada is much worse as a way to cover the negatives of the health care in the US is a very terrible attempt at winning an argument. What so this suddenly makes the flaws in the US system acceptable?

 

[Bjerknes]

tell that to the husband and family of my 30 year old friend who introduced me to Tia.....she died of a stroke after being transferred to 2 different hospitals, because her local hospital didnt have the facilities to handle a stroke

12 hours later she died on an operating table after a brain hemmorage

if that happened here in Buffalo, when she got to the hospital, they would have treated the stroke propely, and she'd probably be alive today

Sorry for the loss, but the same thing happened to Enron's family in the US. Therefore, it can happen anywhere.

But the point is... misdiagnosis occurs everywhere. Perhaps I even have it right now. But what sets healthcare apart is the payments.

 

[Lion]

what if you need to see a specialist ??

that usually isnt covered in Canada, is it ??

Dental ??

You get better insurance coverage (Gold plan, or something like that) if your occupation offers that, correct ??

Our system isnt perfect, but I think its better

Oh for sure. Those are big issues. It takes forever to see a specialist. It's been months and we're waiting for the eye doctor to book my dad's operation.

Dental is another major thing. It's really annoying that our health care doesn't cover it.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

try going to Canada, and tell me its better

When I was in Canada, I busted my wrist in a bar, and i went to the hospital.

I was not a resident, and not a citizen.

I got it wrapped and examined in 40 minutes in Monteal...

FOR FREE!​

 

[swag]

what if you need to see a specialist ??

that usually isnt covered in Canada, is it ??

Dental ??

You get better insurance coverage (Gold plan, or something like that) if your occupation offers that, correct ??

Our system isnt perfect, but I think its better

I would generally surmise that the specialist care is generally better in the States. But that's less than 2% of the population. Few of us fortunately experience the medical needs of what to do when there's a railroad spike rammed through your forehead and there are poisonous scorpions living in your anus.

That means for the greater than 98% of the cases of heath care, Americans pay for the most bloated, most expensive, and one of the least effective health care systems in the G-8 world. And I fully believe that. My opinion is based on, for example, what I know is the standard formulary regimen of health care for Type I diabetics in the U.S. versus that in Europe and Canada. It has only been in the past 2-3 years that the officially accepted regimen for California's largest private insurer met up to the standards that have been followed in the public health plans of most European countries for the past decade. In other words: when it comes to chronic or non-urgent care, American health care is largely a dinosaur.

And my opinion is based on working in prior hospital systems as a grad student where I observed that there are no incentives for financial efficiencies in advancing health care (something normally Americans pride themselves on having a lock on).

Americans could get so much more for their health care dollar if they could avoid the administrative bloat of multipayer systems, each with different forms, staff, and agencies. And if they could have more of a system that rewards financial efficiencies rather than creating new, expensive equipment, drugs and procedures that are relevant to only 1% of the population and yet the other 99% still have to be wastefully funded for it largely to over-prescribe and avoid lawsuits.

Instead of making the cost-effective MRI that could make it more accessible and financially viable to more patients who need it, instead we fund and funnel dollars to equipment and standards that are irrelevant except for the medical paper publishers and the handful of patients who can actually benefit from something on the fringes. This is the same financial logic that went behind $600 toilet seats in NASA: continually manufacture for only just a few instead of the masses, and the prices get ridiculous.

Vinman, the great irony is that the American health care system most closely resembles the most bloated, inefficient waste of government bureaucracies that are typically associated most with leftist, liberal political spending. It's a system where private industry has emulated (and exceeded) the worst habits and practices of "big government" evils.

Is it a surprise that one in six Americans has no health insurance? That's just messed up.

 

[Seven]

So you people in Europe don't have to work for what they get?

More than 1 out of 15 students (nowadays) are able to get a college education. I believe the ratio is at the minimum 1 out of 5. Some people choose not to because they say they can make more money in another trade, or others because they don't care to. Now if you want to label Americans as lazy, I would agree with you to an extent.

Of course education at universities is expensive here. But it's the same with the UK as far as I know, and both countries have the most top universities in the world. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. There is no such thing as a free lunch, that's for sure. Thankfully there are scholarships and grants to cut the slack a little.

Other than that, I don't think there is much consistency in your posts apart from some vague material regarding how you wouldn't want to live here. That's your opinion and perfectly fine. I wouldn't want to live in many parts of this country either, probably about 85% of it.

I'm not saying you don't have to work for it in Belgium, just that pretty much everyone can pay college. It's a 500 euro entrance fee. Which is a wee bit lower than what you pay in America. And if you can't pay 500 euro, you get a scolarship. Universities don't just pick the best and the richest over here.

 

[Seven]

Never said I agreed with it. Just pointing out that there's more than one monolithic way to approach a social safety net, for better or worse.

There is a truism here that's half funny for how it's half true: "There is nothing more intolerant than a liberal San Franciscan." Sounds like you might be suffering from a little bit of that yourself here.



Which is true of any education. Unless they are drugging you people in Belgium and injecting education in some sort of serum form.

But I would generally argue that those at the lowest rungs of U.S. society have far more chances and opportunities than their European counterparts. All major universities have financial instruments for encouraging the lower classes to attend. And there are excellent public universities as well. The trouble is when you live in a crap neighborhood and your primary schooling is stuck to your crummy, local community standards.

I know it's a stereotype and it's rather hackneyed, but Europe truly is far more stratified when it comes to social mobility.



My American education must be failing me because I neither understand the sentence nor the reference. :confused2



That was part of my original point. Waiting for over an hour is not uncommon in a lot of ER waiting rooms in the U.S., Japan, etc.

Wow, Greg, that really shows you how little you know of Europe. I don't know what they are telling you in the States, but if you can't pay University in Belgium, it's simply free, regardless of your high school results. The only thing you would need is a diploma and even then the university can still decide to let you in without it. The funny thing is you would have been right if you were talking in 1776. Europe is way less stratified than the States right now. Which must be hard to accept for Americans as the United States are founded on the principle of social mobility.

Phrase should have read: to change.

@Vin: dental care and specialists are free in Belgium as well.

 

[JCK]

Well universities in Sweden are totally free plus you get student allowance which is around 300 € per month plus you can get a full loan which is up to 400 € per month.

 

[Seven]

Well universities in Sweden are totally free plus you get student allowance which is around 300 € per month plus you can get a full loan which is up to 400 € per month.

Exactly. And Swag's argument consists of saying there is ample room for social mobility as some universities can offer a couple of highly intelligent students scolarships.

What I will argue however is that the topnotch education in the United States might be of a higher level than the one you get in Belgium. Then again, Leuven ranks about as high as any American university based on research and recent reports say that the educations isn't any worse either. But still, it would make sense if American universities offered better education for the best as they are, all in all, a business (which they, somehow, are in Belgium and Sweden as well, just much less).

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

well let's see here

tuition - $6400
Books/materials - $500
Bus fare - $800

now, here are my options work summer and weekends for what should be minimum wage, because some conservatives decided they were going to lower taxes and had to make up for it by not increasing minimum wage for 8 years or i can get a loan, multiply those numbers by 4 and i'll be paying that shit off for decades.

would i rather pay more taxes? i am just mad at how can sweden and such do it.

by the way, one of the reasons healthcare is so messed up in Ontario it is because of the cuts made to it by the conservative government i mentioned above

 

[JCK]

Taxes, Bes. I pay 37% income tax. And that's the lowest you pay when working full time. Our VAT on normal goods is 25%, on alcohol and tobacco it is around 40%. Then comes the yearly taxes for living, cars etc. Am I complaining? On the contrary, I pay the taxes with a smile on my face.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

exactly, taxes here are synonym with government stealing your money

 

[JCK]

If we get a child, we get 18 months paid leave to be divided between me and my wife. Beat that!!

Plus we start getting child allowance until the age of 18.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

18 months of paid leave sounds like a lot of fun