Shocking ! (5 Viewers)

[swag]

I don't think you understood me. But to answer your questions; yes I have, in Sweden. I didn't have to wait at all.

I said it's not acceptable for something like this to happen anywhere, irrespective of what country it occurs in. I didn't say anything about it happening or not.

My point is I think we're kidding ourselves if we think most societies will fund a social net to take care of some of its most destitute. At least to the degree some of us might expect to be treated.

The world isn't fair. Doesn't make it right. But it isn't fair. Things like this have happened since the beginning of time. People die of neglect and inattention, let alone loneliness, on a daily basis.

It doesn't mean we should become numb to it, but let's not all be shocked about the reality here. Your ability to pay is directly proportional to your ability to avoid situations like that.

And for the record about ERs, I've found most of them to be the door of standard care. It's typical in places like the U.S. and Japan that it can be an hour before someone sees you.

 

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[Zé Tahir]

My point is I think we're kidding ourselves if we think most societies will fund a social net to take care of some of its most destitute. At least to the degree some of us might expect to be treated.

The world isn't fair. Doesn't make it right. But it isn't fair. Things like this have happened since the beginning of time. People die of neglect and inattention, let alone loneliness, on a daily basis.

It doesn't mean we should become numb to it, but let's not all be shocked about the reality here. Your ability to pay is directly proportional to your ability to avoid situations like that.

And for the record about ERs, I've found most of them to be the door of standard care. It's typical in places like the U.S. and Japan that it can be an hour before someone sees you.

I don't know why you're addressing this to me I don't disagree with you.

About the last thing though; I know once can expect to wait to be given medical treatment but you would expect that if a person falls off a chair and is lying on the floor struggling that someone, be it a nurse, doctor, or someone sitting in the same room, will freaking say something.

 

[swag]

I don't know why you're addressing this to me I don't disagree with you.

About the last thing though; I know once can expect to wait to be given medical treatment but you would expect that if a person falls off a chair and is lying on the floor struggling that someone, be it a nurse, doctor, or someone sitting in the same room, will freaking say something.

I'm not disagreeing with you either.

How the &^#$ did that happen?

 

[Zé Tahir]

 

[Seven]

Dude, that is one smug load of self-serving crap you're eating there. I hope you brought napkins.

Fine, you think it is, I don't care. I feel like I don't even have to come up with arguments anymore, it's so damn obvious.

 

[Seven]

Tell me about it. I don't have health insurance. So this spring when I basically broke my ankle, I had to suck it up and walk the shit off. It's still kind of deformed to this day. I'm not complaining, I mean it works fine, I just don't have the same range of motion as I used to. But I can't imagine what happens to others like me who have more serious issues.

Greg, Dru and Andy all seem to think that's pretty normal. Hey, that's just the way it is in the USA, nothing anything can do about it.

And you guys go to Iraq to install democracy

 

[Bjerknes]

Greg, Dru and Andy all seem to think that's pretty normal. Hey, that's just the way it is in the USA, nothing anything can do about it.

And you guys go to Iraq to install democracy

It's not about the healthcare, but about the fact that you said it's extremely difficult to become educated in the United States. I find that pretty strange since the many intelligent people flock to America to receive a college degree. It's what you make of it.

Anybody sensible here knows the healthcare system is pretty fucked up.

 

[.zero]

Greg, Dru and Andy all seem to think that's pretty normal. Hey, that's just the way it is in the USA, nothing anything can do about it.

And you guys go to Iraq to install democracy

But I'm being dead serious when I say there is nothing you anyone can do about it

 

[Seven]

It's not about the healthcare, but about the fact that you said it's extremely difficult to become educated in the United States. I find that pretty strange since the many intelligent people flock to America to receive a college degree. It's what you make of it.

Anybody sensible here knows the healthcare system is pretty fucked up.

Oh, and how did those intelligent people get educated? I suppose they went to public schools in the Bronx.

 

[swag]

Fine, you think it is, I don't care. I feel like I don't even have to come up with arguments anymore, it's so damn obvious.

Andries, this is really just "bridges never fall in (most of) Western Europe" Part II for you. (Again, nevermind my argument for the collapse and resulting deaths from the new terminal in CDG a few years ago.)

Greg, Dru and Andy all seem to think that's pretty normal. Hey, that's just the way it is in the USA, nothing anything can do about it.

And you guys go to Iraq to install democracy

I think you're really missing the point here. You're starting to argue from a, "Well, if it's OK for a streetperson to die in a psych ward, naturally they should invade Iraq and bring it democracy" logic. Which isn't. Let's not mix stories here -- it makes you look more like the crazy one.

I think healthcare is a joke in this country and it's on the verge of system collapse. It's so patched together with faux-taxes on businesses, weird premiums, Byzantine rules and regulations and paperwork, pharma lobbyists. Labor issues in America (strikes, etc.) are primarily about health care benefits now.

In a lot of ways, that's been tolerated because this nation -- for better or worse -- believes less in social nets and more in as few obligations as possible. Both approaches, and every flavor inbetween, have costs associated with them.

Nobody wants people with head damage dying of neglect in their hospitals. But not everyone wants to pay for the same level of care either. Every time I hear some homeless person outside my office screaming with Tourette's syndrome at the top of their lungs, I inevitably say, "Thank you, Ronald Reagan." Largely because Reagan decided to pull the plug on a lot of mental health funding and essentially flooded the streets with new homeless people incapable of taking care of themselves without serious risk of death.

There are many shades of gray out there, Andries. It's not all black-and-white simplistic as your Juve home kit.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

greg, you are trying hard, and making sense. the way i see it, seven and many others this age, including me, are gonna drop that idealistic socialism crap

 

[Seven]

Andries, this is really just "bridges never fall in (most of) Western Europe" Part II for you. (Again, nevermind my argument for the collapse and resulting deaths from the new terminal in CDG a few years ago.)



I think you're really missing the point here. You're starting to argue from a, "Well, if it's OK for a streetperson to die in a psych ward, naturally they should invade Iraq and bring it democracy" logic. Which isn't. Let's not mix stories here -- it makes you look more like the crazy one.

I think healthcare is a joke in this country and it's on the verge of system collapse. It's so patched together with faux-taxes on businesses, weird premiums, Byzantine rules and regulations and paperwork, pharma lobbyists. Labor issues in America (strikes, etc.) are primarily about health care benefits now.

In a lot of ways, that's been tolerated because this nation -- for better or worse -- believes less in social nets and more in as few obligations as possible. Both approaches, and every flavor inbetween, have costs associated with them.

Nobody wants people with head damage dying of neglect in their hospitals. But not everyone wants to pay for the same level of care either. Every time I hear some homeless person outside my office screaming with Tourette's syndrome at the top of their lungs, I inevitably say, "Thank you, Ronald Reagan." Largely because Reagan decided to pull the plug on a lot of mental health funding and essentially flooded the streets with new homeless people incapable of taking care of themselves without serious risk of death.

There are many shades of gray out there, Andries. It's not all black-and-white simplistic as your Juve home kit.

No, there's black and there are shades of gray. White may not exist, but black certainly does. That phrase goes a long way in showing how little you know of socialised medicine by the way.

But honestly, you can't debate this with Americans. Zygmunt Bauman is right, Europeans and Americans simply do not live in the same world.

 

[Seven]

greg, you are trying hard, and making sense. the way i see it, seven and many others this age, including me, are gonna drop that idealistic socialism crap

It's not about idealistic social crap. In fact, I always vote liberal in Belgium (which is opposed to socialism here obviously). But some things in a society simply need to be socialised. Both the American health care and the American education system are extremely poor. No one needs to come up with this nuance bullshit that is only masking a general feeling of acceptance. It's not about shades. This is as black as the night.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

you know why the social safety net is not going to work in US (and i some respect canada) because if you vote liberal this side of the Atlantic you might as well be voting communist

 

[Seven]

you know why the social safety net is not going to work in US (and i some respect canada) because if you vote liberal this side of the Atlantic you might as well be voting communist

That's the thing. I find it highly amusing an American is telling me I lack the ability to see shades of grey.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

well, you hate on usa for not being like belgium, yet you fail to see that it is rather impossible no matter how much people may want it.

 

[Seven]

well, you hate on usa for not being like belgium, yet you fail to see that is rather impossible no matter how much people may want it.

That's quite a gratuite statement to make.

I thought the USA was the land of possibilities. Isn't that what we are led to believe?

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

yes, but in order to make those possibilities happen, you need the government to take less money from your paycheck

the money taken is not enough for both health care and war on terror. you can see which one they picked

 

[Alen]

Nothing beats the good old Yugoslav communism (Titoism, more precisely)

Health care - free
Education (including University) - free

Job guaranteed after you finish high school (no unemployment), great salary, you work 5 days a week, 8 hours per day (you come to work 2 hours late, you leave an hour earlier, you drink coffee for an hour and work 3 or 4 hours), 40 days a year vacation. You go to the other eastern european countries and you fuck the most beautiful women because your monthly salary equals the money they get in 5 years. Your passport has equal value the Swiss passport has nowdays (Yugoslavia, eventhough socialist country was always the bridge between the eastern communism and western capitalism) and you don't give a fuck about anything.

Obviously, it was impossible for the Titoism to last long, but it was great while it lasted. I envy those who were 20/30 in the 1950's and died in the early 1990's.

 

[X Æ A-12]

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshha7yWd26E7aVn265I

"KINGS COUNTY (WABC) -- New York City hospital officials promised reforms at a Brooklyn psychiatric ward where surveillance footage captured a woman falling from her chair, writhing on the floor and dying as workers watched without helping for an hour."

That's really fu*ked up.

I agree that looks really wrong but to be honest I am not surprised they did nothing. I'm sure that in a mental hospital seeing a patient rolling on the ground and screaming for hours happens multiple times a day. They should have tried to do something but this isn't shocking.