Shocking ! (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Marceℓℓo
- Start date
I agree on the white part, but disagree on the black. I think black is the crutch of novelists who want to paint good vs. bad in wide swaths. We want things to conveniently sort themselves into simple categories. But that never happens.
Even Hitler did a few good deeds in his lifetime (intentions aside), and he's about as black as it gets.
There is that. Voters wouldn't support something with a wide safety net. Particularly one that doesn't offer incentives for one over another. Take our social security system. I think of it as a social safety net, a pay-as-you-go system, and if you get something out of it in the end, well, life probably wasn't too kind to you otherwise for you to have to need it.
Other people want to treat it as personal investment accounts (which it is not), and screw the people who need it most when they retire. "If they were too stupid to invest poorly, tough luck."
There's a lot more financial Darwinism at work over here.
That's what they say. And there are possibilities because you have the opportunity to chart your own course with more variables and controls in your hands -- and some at the expense of a wider social safety net.
Sociologists and economists may argue about whether society is a closed or open system. There are elements of both. But funding for that opportunity can partly come at the expense of leveling the playing field for the less fortunate. It's easier to move ahead when you're not ankle chained to 200 other people -- or at least so goes the logic.
I see some validity to the points, but my tolerance for a social safety night is higher than most here. (I'm in "liberal San Francisco", for crying out loud.)
Nothing is free. You're always paying for it -- in one way or another.
Even Hitler did a few good deeds in his lifetime (intentions aside), and he's about as black as it gets.
There is that. Voters wouldn't support something with a wide safety net. Particularly one that doesn't offer incentives for one over another. Take our social security system. I think of it as a social safety net, a pay-as-you-go system, and if you get something out of it in the end, well, life probably wasn't too kind to you otherwise for you to have to need it.
Other people want to treat it as personal investment accounts (which it is not), and screw the people who need it most when they retire. "If they were too stupid to invest poorly, tough luck."
There's a lot more financial Darwinism at work over here.
That's what they say. And there are possibilities because you have the opportunity to chart your own course with more variables and controls in your hands -- and some at the expense of a wider social safety net.
Sociologists and economists may argue about whether society is a closed or open system. There are elements of both. But funding for that opportunity can partly come at the expense of leveling the playing field for the less fortunate. It's easier to move ahead when you're not ankle chained to 200 other people -- or at least so goes the logic.
I see some validity to the points, but my tolerance for a social safety night is higher than most here. (I'm in "liberal San Francisco", for crying out loud.)
Nothing is free. You're always paying for it -- in one way or another.
But again, you're alluding to the fact that you don't think Americans could ever be intelligent because of the place we live. You don't believe Americans have the intelligence to see through bullshit such as media nonsense, or whatever other various things you and I might despise. You're basically segregating us, putting us in the same boat, the same stereotype, that you always love to use.
Many Americans (by birth) have won the Nobel Prize, the top two richest people in the world are Gates and Buffet, etc etc etc. Like I said before, it's what you make of it. So yes, it's obvious you were wrong with your original statement.
Oh yeah, "that would never happen in Europe." That was a good one, Andries.
I bet if a plane had crashed the other day at La Guardia because somebody forgot to remove a piece of aircraft from the runway, we'd receive the usual "never happens in Europe" response.
But then we'd have to refer him to another incident at the Charles de Gaulle airport.
Oh, here's something that would NEVER happen in the United States, you see, because we actually have good wildfire specialists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Greek_forest_fires
Greek Forest Fire Kills 84.
Again, it's what you make out of it. Now if you tell me the "American dream" is a bunch of crap, perhaps I'd agree.
Many Americans (by birth) have won the Nobel Prize, the top two richest people in the world are Gates and Buffet, etc etc etc. Like I said before, it's what you make of it. So yes, it's obvious you were wrong with your original statement.
Oh yeah, "that would never happen in Europe." That was a good one, Andries.
I bet if a plane had crashed the other day at La Guardia because somebody forgot to remove a piece of aircraft from the runway, we'd receive the usual "never happens in Europe" response.
But then we'd have to refer him to another incident at the Charles de Gaulle airport.
Oh, here's something that would NEVER happen in the United States, you see, because we actually have good wildfire specialists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Greek_forest_fires
Greek Forest Fire Kills 84.
Again, it's what you make out of it. Now if you tell me the "American dream" is a bunch of crap, perhaps I'd agree.
So it's perfectly acceptable. Honest mistake.
You're missing the point, Andy. Obviously there is top notch education in America. It's just that it's expensive. So you either have to be very intelligent to get a scolarship or you have to be very rich. Having many Nobel Prize winners doesn't mean you've got an educated public, because last time I checked Nobel Prize winners didn't make up the average population. You're talking about the top, I'm talking about the bottom. Just keep swallowing the bullshit, Andy.
You're missing the point, Andy. Obviously there is top notch education in America. It's just that it's expensive. So you either have to be very intelligent to get a scolarship or you have to be very rich. Having many Nobel Prize winners doesn't mean you've got an educated public, because last time I checked Nobel Prize winners didn't make up the average population. You're talking about the top, I'm talking about the bottom. Just keep swallowing the bullshit, Andy.
You were not ever talking about the bottom. Rather, you were talking about the entire population, saying it's "very hard" for a citizen of this nation to become educated. Wouldn't you consider that a back-handed compliment? It's like you're giving Americans an excuse for not being educated yet insulting their intelligence at the same time. I've said it time and time again on this forum that yes, there are clearly a lot of American imbeciles - I encounter them on a daily basis. But then again, I encounter many learned and intelligent Americans around the nation such as Greg, Burke, Enron and others. Hell, Burke and I went to a private school and public schools offered several more advanced courses than we had.
Sure, our education system from kindergarten through high school is poor compared to other nations, just like our healthcare system. But the fact that so many students here can overcome the horrible excuse for a school system and turn out to be very useful to our society is a testament to how wrong some of you Europeans happen to be about us. It's not difficult to learn and see through the various bullshit in this nation IF you're willing to.
Sure, our education system from kindergarten through high school is poor compared to other nations, just like our healthcare system. But the fact that so many students here can overcome the horrible excuse for a school system and turn out to be very useful to our society is a testament to how wrong some of you Europeans happen to be about us. It's not difficult to learn and see through the various bullshit in this nation IF you're willing to.
Again, you're missing the point. I never said it was impossible to get a good education, I never said Greg or you were morons (although I have to say my opinion of Greg has changed quite a bit after his recent statements, which defended a rotten system a bit too much). What I did say however was that is was difficult, as in: you have to make an effort.
And yes, I do give an excuse to some Americans for not being educated. Again you come up with the possibility bullshit. I'm sorry, but if you're born in some backward part of town with a black skin and two poor parents who never went to college, what are the chances you get to go? What I'm talking about here is how possibilities in America, dubbed the nation of possibilities FFS, are actually quite small. Sure, if 1 out of 15 gets to have an higher education, you could say it's possible in sensu stricto. I personally find that a load of crap though.
Oh and Greg, not being able the change is the definition of impossibility.
And yes, I do give an excuse to some Americans for not being educated. Again you come up with the possibility bullshit. I'm sorry, but if you're born in some backward part of town with a black skin and two poor parents who never went to college, what are the chances you get to go? What I'm talking about here is how possibilities in America, dubbed the nation of possibilities FFS, are actually quite small. Sure, if 1 out of 15 gets to have an higher education, you could say it's possible in sensu stricto. I personally find that a load of crap though.
Oh and Greg, not being able the change is the definition of impossibility.
of the Americans here, how many of us have ever waited over an hour in the Emergency waiting room before being treated ??
next time I wait so long, I might as well fall over too
next time I wait so long, I might as well fall over too
What's your point?
My grandmother died in a New York state hospital when doctors misdiagnosed and therefore neglected her tummy ache which turned out to be a septic bowel obstruction. She was on Medicaid, which had a part to play in her mistreatment. I know what a shame. Just another welfare granny, draining society, who should have had a job at 65 so she could get better treatment.
My grandmother died in a New York state hospital when doctors misdiagnosed and therefore neglected her tummy ache which turned out to be a septic bowel obstruction. She was on Medicaid, which had a part to play in her mistreatment. I know what a shame. Just another welfare granny, draining society, who should have had a job at 65 so she could get better treatment.
So you people in Europe don't have to work for what they get?
More than 1 out of 15 students (nowadays) are able to get a college education. I believe the ratio is at the minimum 1 out of 5. Some people choose not to because they say they can make more money in another trade, or others because they don't care to. Now if you want to label Americans as lazy, I would agree with you to an extent.
Of course education at universities is expensive here. But it's the same with the UK as far as I know, and both countries have the most top universities in the world. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. There is no such thing as a free lunch, that's for sure. Thankfully there are scholarships and grants to cut the slack a little.
Other than that, I don't think there is much consistency in your posts apart from some vague material regarding how you wouldn't want to live here. That's your opinion and perfectly fine. I wouldn't want to live in many parts of this country either, probably about 85% of it.
More than 1 out of 15 students (nowadays) are able to get a college education. I believe the ratio is at the minimum 1 out of 5. Some people choose not to because they say they can make more money in another trade, or others because they don't care to. Now if you want to label Americans as lazy, I would agree with you to an extent.
Of course education at universities is expensive here. But it's the same with the UK as far as I know, and both countries have the most top universities in the world. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. There is no such thing as a free lunch, that's for sure. Thankfully there are scholarships and grants to cut the slack a little.
Other than that, I don't think there is much consistency in your posts apart from some vague material regarding how you wouldn't want to live here. That's your opinion and perfectly fine. I wouldn't want to live in many parts of this country either, probably about 85% of it.
Never said I agreed with it. Just pointing out that there's more than one monolithic way to approach a social safety net, for better or worse.
There is a truism here that's half funny for how it's half true: "There is nothing more intolerant than a liberal San Franciscan." Sounds like you might be suffering from a little bit of that yourself here.
Which is true of any education. Unless they are drugging you people in Belgium and injecting education in some sort of serum form.
But I would generally argue that those at the lowest rungs of U.S. society have far more chances and opportunities than their European counterparts. All major universities have financial instruments for encouraging the lower classes to attend. And there are excellent public universities as well. The trouble is when you live in a crap neighborhood and your primary schooling is stuck to your crummy, local community standards.
I know it's a stereotype and it's rather hackneyed, but Europe truly is far more stratified when it comes to social mobility.
My American education must be failing me because I neither understand the sentence nor the reference. :confused2
That was part of my original point. Waiting for over an hour is not uncommon in a lot of ER waiting rooms in the U.S., Japan, etc.
There is a truism here that's half funny for how it's half true: "There is nothing more intolerant than a liberal San Franciscan." Sounds like you might be suffering from a little bit of that yourself here.
Which is true of any education. Unless they are drugging you people in Belgium and injecting education in some sort of serum form.
But I would generally argue that those at the lowest rungs of U.S. society have far more chances and opportunities than their European counterparts. All major universities have financial instruments for encouraging the lower classes to attend. And there are excellent public universities as well. The trouble is when you live in a crap neighborhood and your primary schooling is stuck to your crummy, local community standards.
I know it's a stereotype and it's rather hackneyed, but Europe truly is far more stratified when it comes to social mobility.
My American education must be failing me because I neither understand the sentence nor the reference. :confused2
of the Americans here, how many of us have ever waited over an hour in the Emergency waiting room before being treated ??
next time I wait so long, I might as well fall over too
next time I wait so long, I might as well fall over too
