Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (24 Viewers)

[Sheik Yerbouti]

arguments about things you dont know? tsk tsk and here i thought you wanted to know and learn about our beliefs. So i guess your intention all along was just to push your burrito arguments, now that is disappointing.

No. Arguments about claims he and his god make.

 

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[Zlatan]

Actually as deneb stated he doesn't judge us we end up judging ourselves by our lives and actions, but once again you do not understand and try to limit God with you're limited mind and understanding

Like I said, thats a cop out when you do not know what to say and the classic religious answer. Luckily enough people dont accept such answers, otherwise we'd still think the earth was flat.



The point of my post is what is the purpose of life? The religious purpose is that it is a test for heaven. What I am saying is that God, beiing omnipotent, always knows the exact outcome of the test, no matter how you try to mascarade it as free will. Therefore, there is no need for the test. THere is no point in the religious prupose of life.


I God limits his power from knowing what you will choose, then that means that free will is a urpose in itself. If the purpose is just doing the test, regardless of whether you will pass or not, then there is no point in grading or punishing you for failing the test. Free will itself is the purpose, and how you use it is irrelevant. Again, the religious purpose of life makes no sense.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

disappointing ? or just proving what we knew, neither Zlatan and especially sheik are actually searching nor curious, they just want to push their arguments at least Zlatan doesn't hide behind "i'm searching still" like sheik does. Sheik is a wolf in sheeps clothing to bad i'm a hunter

Sure. Go on ignoring what I say. It's the only way you can sustain belief in your fantasy world.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

No. Arguments about claims he and his god make.

You and i have nothing to discuss any further

 

[Zlatan]

he's making sure theres no chance of a hang jury

Its not about a hung jury, its about evidence. Basically God doesnt trust himself that he would make the right decision so he needs to let the thing play out?

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Like I said, thats a cop out when you do not know what to say and the classic religious answer. Luckily enough people dont accept such answers, otherwise we'd still think the earth was flat.



The point of my post is what is the purpose of life? The religious purpose is that it is a test for heaven. What I am saying is that God, beiing omnipotent, always knows the exact outcome of the test, no matter how you try to mascarade it as free will. Therefore, there is no need for the test. THere is no point in the religious prupose of life.


I God limits his power from knowing what you will choose, then that means that free will is a urpose in itself. If the purpose is just doing the test, regardless of whether you will pass or not, then there is no point in grading or punishing you for failing the test. Free will itself is the purpose, and how you use it is irrelevant. Again, the religious purpose of life makes no sense.

The religious purpose in life is this.
Jesus replied: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.’c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 11:45 ----------

Its not about a hung jury, its about evidence. Basically God doesnt trust himself that he would make the right decision so he needs to let the thing play out?

thats not it at all, he wants to see if we desire him and love him enough to ant to be with him and not just be with him because he deems so.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Like I said, thats a cop out when you do not know what to say and the classic religious answer. Luckily enough people dont accept such answers, otherwise we'd still think the earth was flat.



The point of my post is what is the purpose of life? The religious purpose is that it is a test for heaven. What I am saying is that God, beiing omnipotent, always knows the exact outcome of the test, no matter how you try to mascarade it as free will. Therefore, there is no need for the test. THere is no point in the religious prupose of life.


I God limits his power from knowing what you will choose, then that means that free will is a urpose in itself. If the purpose is just doing the test, regardless of whether you will pass or not, then there is no point in grading or punishing you for failing the test. Free will itself is the purpose, and how you use it is irrelevant. Again, the religious purpose of life makes no sense.

Adding to this, there is no point in creating life either. Since he knows the results of the test, he has no need to even create us. No need to run the test again. He can be content with the knowledge he has of the test. But in still creating the universe and life in it, he has some need. A need to somehow verify the results of the test, as if like a scientist repeating tests to confirm his doubts about the initial test result. This just means that he's imperfect, as he has a need. Therefore, by definition, he cannot exist as he's imperfect.

 

[Zlatan]

disappointing ? or just proving what we knew, neither Zlatan and especially sheik are actually searching nor curious, they just want to push their arguments at least Zlatan doesn't hide behind "i'm searching still" like sheik does. Sheik is a wolf in sheeps clothing to bad i'm a hunter

I'm not searching for religion, but if I heard a good argument which made me change my mind I'd accept it. But so far I have not heard such an argumment.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

You and i have nothing to discuss any further

Thanks for conceding defeat.

The religious purpose in life is this.
Jesus replied: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.’c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 11:45 ----------



thats not it at all, he wants to see if we desire him and love him enough to ant to be with him and not just be with him because he deems so.

A perfect being who has wants and needs. What a non-contradictory concept.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

I'm not searching for religion, but if I heard a good argument which made me change my mind I'd accept it. But so far I have not heard such an argumment.

That's why i stated you don't hide behind that. Also it's not about religion it's about the communion with your creator, the path you choose is up to you mine is Christianity because I believe in Jesus, who he said he was and what he said about God the father

 

[Zlatan]

The religious purpose in life is this.
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’b 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’c 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 11:45 ----------



thats not it at all, he wants to see if we desire him and love him enough to ant to be with him and not just be with him because he deems so.

Except helping him through taxes, aye


That is the commandement of religion, but not the purpose of the life. The purpose of life is to get into heaven, and to do so you ahve to follow these comandemments.


Secondly, if God really wants us to love him for who he is, then going about it by threathening everybody who doesnt love him with eternal damnation isnt probably the best way. Otherwise he will never know who really loves him and who'is just a heaven-digger.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Thanks for conceding defeat.



A perfect being who has wants and needs. What a non-contradictory concept.

it's not about defeat it's that you're an asshole who mocks and thinks he is superior so I have no time to waste with a trivial douche

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 11:53 ----------

Except helping him through taxes, aye


That is the commandement of religion, but not the purpose of the life. The purpose of life is to get into heaven, and to do so you ahve to follow these comandemments.



Secondly, if God really wants us to love him for who he is, then going about it by threathening everybody who doesnt love him with eternal damnation isnt probably the best way. Otherwise he will never know who really loves him and who'is just a heaven-digger.

It's not a threat it's an option you choose where you want to go. For instance you have chosen to not believe in the end when god tries to call you until the last judgement if you choose to continue to not believe and or repent then you have chosen your destination

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 11:54 ----------

Except helping him through taxes, aye


That is the commandement of religion, but not the purpose of the life. The purpose of life is to get into heaven, and to do so you ahve to follow these comandemments.


Secondly, if God really wants us to love him for who he is, then going about it by threathening everybody who doesnt love him with eternal damnation isnt probably the best way. Otherwise he will never know who really loves him and who'is just a heaven-digger.

is helping him through taxes really helping though, it's not actual charity nor is it actual sacrifice of one self ala working at a food bank etc

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

it's not about defeat it's that you're an asshole who mocks and thinks he is superior so I have no time to waste with a trivial douche

No, it's that you don't have a proper response to the argument I made, so your defense mechanisms are kicking in, and you're resorting to name-calling to hide your insecurities.

It's not a threat it's an option you choose where you want to go.

That's absurd! Go watch the video about free will I posted a few pages back, and tell me with all honesty that that's not absurd. I dare you.

If you apply the same logic to kidnappers, then they're giving you an "option": Give them money, of they kill your daughter.

Oh yes, it's an "option" alright. :groan:

 

[Zlatan]

it's not about defeat it's that you're an asshole who mocks and thinks he is superior so I have no time to waste with a trivial douche

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 11:53 ----------



It's not a threat it's an option you choose where you want to go. For instance you have chosen to not believe in the end when god tries to call you until the last judgement if you choose to continue to not believe and or repent then you have chosen your destination

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 11:54 ----------



is helping him through taxes really helping though, it's not actual charity nor is it actual sacrifice of one self ala working at a food bank etc

It is a choice the same way a robbery is a choice between gifting the robber your money or choosing to let him interit it after your immediate death.


And yes, it is helping if it will allow people who have no, for example, medical insurance to get it, or homeless people to have shelters or a social protection system. It is sacrificing because you are giving money you eraned for it, thus basically giving your time and work.

The only difference is that you notice it less as you dont directly do it. BUt it is the more effective way of dealing with problems. Then the question becomes do you want to really help the people or just feel better about yourself?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Its not about a hung jury, its about evidence. Basically God doesnt trust himself that he would make the right decision so he needs to let the thing play out?

no he knows but we dont, both parties need to have closure, whereas he already has it we need to go throught the motions.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

no he knows but we dont, both parties need to have closure, whereas he already has it we need to go throught the motions.

He can just ask us to have faith in what he's seen though, right?

If he thinks(as you claim) that we need to go through the motions, then why does he ask us to have faith in him rather than simply reveling himself and letting us go through the motions of experiencing him through our own eyes?

 

[Zlatan]

no he knows but we dont, both parties need to have closure, whereas he already has it we need to go throught the motions.

Again, basically God doesnt want us to be mad at him, yet he's perfectly fine with throwing us in hell if we're mad/dont believe in him?


Seems legit.

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 18:06 ----------

He can just ask us to have faith in what he's seen though, right?

Exactly. If we believe in God we will trust him. If we dont, we're going to hell anyway.

What X is basically saying is that God wants to give us evidence that we deserved heaven or hell, but doesnt want to give us evidence he exists. He wants to reaffirm our faith that he made the right decision but doesnt want to affirm the faith he actually exists?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

He can just ask us to have faith in what he's seen though, right?

but you are assuming we didnt choose to be here in the first place, moreover where does that put someone like you?

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 11:10 ----------

Again, basically God doesnt want us to be mad at him, yet he's perfectly fine with throwing us in hell if we're mad/dont believe in him?


Seems legit.

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 18:06 ----------



Exactly. If we believe in God we will trust him. If we dont, we're going to hell anyway.

What X is basically saying is that God wants to give us evidence that we deserved heaven or hell, but doesnt want to give us evidence he exists. He wants to reaffirm our faith that he made the right decision but doesnt want to affirm the faith he actually exists?

Him being just is all about appeasing us? thats a stretch considering He created us

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

but you are assuming we didnt choose to be here in the first place, moreover where does that put someone like you?

Answer my question first: why can't he simply ask us to have faith in what he's seen just like he asks us to have faith in him right now?

 

[AndreaCristiano]

but you are assuming we didnt choose to be here in the first place, moreover where does that put someone like you?

---------- Post added 25.06.2012 at 11:10 ----------




Him being just is all about appeasing us? thats a stretch considering He created us

keep up the good fight my brother, I am going out to dine with my lovely future wife. Be well and Godspeed