Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (1 Viewer)

Well, did...

  • Man make God?

  • God make Man?


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OP
OP
Dinsdale
Jun 26, 2007
2,706
#3
It does take an effort to attentively listen to it. But I'm counting on at least a few members in here to do it though. :p

This is the first time I've seen a theist actually trying to rationalize his views, and coming up with better arguments than "well, there has to be something, right?".
 
OP
OP
Dinsdale
Jun 26, 2007
2,706
#4
To whoever placed this thread to the religion section: I can understand moving it to this section, but it's not a discussion about religion! I intentionally didn't place it there because then it might be interpreted wrongly. The debaters talk about God from a purely metaphysical - and not religious - viewpoint.
 

Alen

Senior Member
Apr 2, 2007
49,038
#5
It does take an effort to attentively listen to it. But I'm counting on at least a few members in here to do it though. :p

This is the first time I've seen a theist actually trying to rationalize his views, and coming up with better arguments than "well, there has to be something, right?".
Still, at the end, on the most important question his answer is "The fact that we'll never know (if God exists) doesn not mean that that which is not known doesn't exist"
 

Bozi

The Bozman
Administrator
Oct 18, 2005
22,733
#6
To whoever placed this thread to the religion section: I can understand moving it to this section, but it's not a discussion about religion! I intentionally didn't place it there because then it might be interpreted wrongly. The debaters talk about God from a purely metaphysical - and not religious - viewpoint.
oh i know, but i also know where this will eventually lead to

just look at the gay school thread and see how things can get distorted here
 
OP
OP
Dinsdale
Jun 26, 2007
2,706
#7
Ален;1772411 said:
Still, at the end, on the most important question his answer is "The fact that we'll never know (if God exists) doesn not mean that that which is not known doesn't exist"
He says a lot more than that.

oh i know, but i also know where this will eventually lead to

just look at the gay school thread and see how things can get distorted here
That's why I wanted to stress out that this is not about religion. (probably in vain like you mentioned)
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,812
#8
I guess perhaps it's inevitable that a debate with such an ambitious title will be intellectually lacking.

The morality argument is laughable. "If God does not exist then objective moral values do not exist." Suppose you accept this premise. Now you have to explain why hundreds of religious sects with divergent moral values claim theirs were handed down by god. So you've made no progress at all towards finding these objective values. And then, incredibly, he goes on to say that objective moral values are obvious to everyone. He just decided out of the blue to make this a new premise and make his original statement irrelevant.

The atheist is a jackass with his arrogant and patronizing overtones.

This stuff is really boring, verynine. Both the form, the long preludes and the statements themselves.
 
OP
OP
Dinsdale
Jun 26, 2007
2,706
#10
I guess perhaps it's inevitable that a debate with such an ambitious title will be intellectually lacking.

The morality argument is laughable. "If God does not exist then objective moral values do not exist." Suppose you accept this premise. Now you have to explain why hundreds of religious sects with divergent moral values claim theirs were handed down by god. So you've made no progress at all towards finding these objective values. And then, incredibly, he goes on to say that objective moral values are obvious to everyone. He just decided out of the blue to make this a new premise and make his original statement irrelevant.

The atheist is a jackass with his arrogant and patronizing overtones.

This stuff is really boring, verynine. Both the form, the long preludes and the statements themselves.
I wasn't impressed by the morality argument either, though I'm not sure if I truly understood what he meant by it (he comes back to it later I think). But to call the debate intellectually lacking because of that single argument is unfair imo. There is only one prelude, the form is pretty standard for debates as far as I know, and the statements are of course not rigorous. The true value of this debate is, in my opinion, that it shows that both views are plausible. Maybe you're just not in the mood for watching it. :p
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,812
#11
I wasn't impressed by the morality argument either, though I'm not sure if I truly understood what he meant by it (he comes back to it later I think). But to call the debate intellectually lacking because of that single argument is unfair imo. There is only one prelude, the form is pretty standard for debates as far as I know, and the statements are of course not rigorous. The true value of this debate is, in my opinion, that it shows that both views are plausible. Maybe you're just not in the mood for watching it. :p
It's not just that argument, it's the whole thing. I know maybe it sounds unfair to criticize without any really hard arguments, but it's just not a debate at a level that's interesting. I don't know how better to explain it.
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
59,864
#12
It's not just that argument, it's the whole thing. I know maybe it sounds unfair to criticize without any really hard arguments, but it's just not a debate at a level that's interesting. I don't know how better to explain it.


supposing God doesnt exist: why are you good? why would you be good?

it rings totally clear with me
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,812
#15
why kill why not steal if you can get away with it, why think of anyone's wellbeing why even get past your basest pleasures? why get old ? why get sick? why go through it? why have hope?
Well, you tell me. Why don't I steal? Why do I think of anyone's well being? Why do I get past my basest pleasures?
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
59,864
#17
well if you dont believe in god, then the concept of goodness ceases to make sense, if one is not striving to better himslef in all facets what then? if theres no purpose to live then life loses value so everything is pointless. why think of tomorrow when i have a quick exit strategy(suicide) as soon as it gets sticky.
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,812
#19
Because you're a wooss and you're scared of the Law :D
So if I'm scared of the law, then.... it's the law making me good, not god. So much for god making us good.

well if you dont believe in god, then the concept of goodness ceases to make sense, if one is not striving to better himslef in all facets what then? if theres no purpose to live then life loses value so everything is pointless. why think of tomorrow when i have a quick exit strategy(suicide) as soon as it gets sticky.
Who said that you can only strive to better yourself for god? Who said that there is no purpose to life other than to make god happy?

These are your assumptions. I don't know how you came up with them, but they're ridiculous.

i would add that if there was such a thing as a real atheist who had "certainty" in his disbelief he would not last 1 week
You have that completely backwards. Have you ever heard of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? It's a religion, or rather a parody religion. So let me do what you do for a minute. "if there was such a thing as a real non believer in the church of the flying spaghetti monster he would not last 1 week". Well do you believe in the spaghetti monster? If not, you have one week to live.
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
59,864
#20
So if I'm scared of the law, then.... it's the law making me good, not god. So much for god making us good.



Who said that you can only strive to better yourself for god? Who said that there is no purpose to life other than to make god happy?

These are your assumptions. I don't know how you came up with them, but they're ridiculous.



You have that completely backwards. Have you ever heard of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? It's a religion, or rather a parody religion. So let me do what you do for a minute. "if there was such a thing as a real non believer in the church of the flying spaghetti monster he would not last 1 week". Well do you believe in the spaghetti monster? If not, you have one week to live.

typical, really.

you chose not to answer the basic questions, to which you have no other alternative than what i presented only to come back and say they re my assumptions. rich.

once again, why dont you go out steal rape and get whatever your heart desires?
brainwashed? scared you might not be able to sleep at night?
 

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