Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (104 Viewers)

[Martin]

So you actually leave room for the possible existence of god?

No. I said before that I don't need God. Some people need God, I don't. It has nothing to do with my ability to understand the universe. I'm perfectly okay not understanding it.

Mathematics is invented by the human mind. It is an internal logical system based on a few axioms, so I really don't know what you mean by "the end of mathematics".

But you can build on these axioms forever.

 

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[rounder]

So there is a god, because a book exists? Surely you can see how faulty this reasoning is yourself?




Unintentionally you confirmed that we can explain it all as we keep evolving and keep expanding our knowlegde and continue to find answer for questions (although these answers often create more questions).

I believe there is a higher power because there is a greater probability of there bing an intelligent being that created us all than us simply being
created by chance.

Exactly, our thoughts keep evolving that for every new solution we find new questions, this means that our thought process is infinite. We will never know the truth ourselves because, hence, our logic is limited. I am more skeptical than others about scientifical philosophy because we see a continual refining and renewing of it, there is never an ultimate truth. We may be lead to understand something one say, only to see it be refuted the very next.

The Bible is there. There is one truth that has just been sitting there for 2000 years, you either choose to believe it or not.

 

[Martin]

The Bible is there. There is one truth that has just been sitting there for 2000 years, you either choose to believe it or not.

It's not a truth, it's a fiction story.

 

[Osman]

From a purely philosphical point of view, I choose to believe that there exists a higher power.[/Qoute]

That's your freedom

Problem with philosophy is that it does not prove anything. The world is created or not. Its a question that deals with facts not abstract ideas, ie its a question of science not philosophy.



However low the probability is, the probability that there exist perfect creature capable of doing all that and not leave a trace of evidence of it's existence is infinitely lower.



Wrong.

Evolution is scientifically proven thousand time over and was observed in action, actually happening in fronT of scientist eyes. If you do not comprehend, can not hand wave it and say it's fool of loopholes.

If you want to further investigate, here is a list of observed evolution in action

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html



Let me reverse this question. If, hypothetically speaking, tomorrow scientist come out with an absolute, irrefutable proof that god does not exist, who will you kill first? Who's daughter will you rape and which house will you robe?



By the best of estimates, in the USA, atheist make up approx 8 to 16 % of the whole population. At the same time, out of entire prisons population in the USA, only 0.21 % are atheists. (for further info google Denise Golumbaski research or check here http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm)

furthermore, what evidence do you have that Osama Bin Laden (or any fanatic of your choice) does not believe in god?




Well, i'm a married man with two kids. I live a very moral life. Never stole, killed or raped. I do not believe that god exist because there is no sufficient evidence for his/hers existence. My take is that i can take moral high ground over a theist because i live morally because i chose to, not because i'm a coward.



Well, irrefutable logic is just that. IF atheists are egoistic, it's easy to bring them down to their level. Show some evidence for your claims.

I find it hard to believe that i am egoistic when confronted by person that i will burn in hell for eternity because of the way i dont subscribe to their favourite truth.

Atheists are free spirits (well, in most of the cases ) and will not be considered part of the heard. Thay are also smart enough to stand their ground. That you dont like it, it's your problem. That does not make atheists wrong in any way.



yet again, ignorance about something is not an argument. I cant teach you biology. Dawkins's Blind Watchmaker explains these things and rebuts all of what you said quite nicely.

Human body is a bad example. Our back is not well "designed" for walking on two legs. It would be perfect for if we were to use our hands for support and walk on all 4 (yeah, like monkey's do ). Almost any bird has a better sight than humans, we cant survive in water, any stray dog has hearing 10 fold better than ours. Not to mention useless parts like appendix or perfect growth like cancers and tumors. We are perfect....right

If everything needs a creator, who created god?


Look infront of you, you will see a computer screen so intelligently designed and manufactured. You would obvously know that it is man made; that it is designed by people. It didn't just appear out of the blue. It's the same with nature. Nature's intelligent design suggests that there must have been a creator, a higher power capable of manufacturing such intelligent design.

and at the same time creating earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, volcanoes?

This planet is perfect place to live, no?

and no scientist ever claimed that we appeared out of the blue. No scientist ever argued that the universe came out of the blue. Science comes up with hypothesis and attempts to falsify it. If it holds water, it remains until better explanation is around. Science explains pretty well how we came about and no intelligent design is necessary.

nb: stuff that you wrote in your post are typical canards that are argued by theists all over the internet. You said nothing that was not argued by theists in last few thousand years. We came long way since then. Check it out. You dont even need to go the the library. Internet is there for these things nowdays

cheers

Aca

 

[rounder]

It's not a truth, it's a fiction story.

A fiction story? You mean like Harry Potter?

It's history, you can't deny history.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

A fiction story? You mean like Harry Potter?

It's history, you can't deny history.

Ohh, so it's nonfiction?

 

[Osman]

A fiction story? You mean like Harry Potter?

It's history, you can't deny history.

You mean they are recorded factual history, everything said there? Not symbolic and allegoric stories with the purpose to teach people life lesssons?

Do you mind saying an example of historical facts there?

 

[Azzurri7]

as expected

 

[rounder]

You mean they are recorded factual history, everything said there? Not symbolic and allegoric stories with the purpose to teach people life lesssons?

Do you mind saying an example of historical facts there?

Jesus turns water into wine. That's a historical fact, a miracle.

I you don't believe it then that's your choice. You can't just deny it as part of hisorty just because it is inconvienient to what you think.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Jesus turns water into wine. That's a historical fact, a miracle.

I you don't believe it then that's your choice. You can't just deny it as part of hisorty just because it is inconvienient to what you think.

You are a fucking retard. It is not a fact, it can't be proven. In law, we call that hearsay.

 

[Osman]

If you bother to unstuck your head from your ass Azzurri7, you would realise he is saying its like concrete historic facts, the contents of the bible. I would assume even your tiny little brain would realise its a bid odd thing to say?

I mean, how is the story of the Babel tower a historical thing? Its not a symbolic story sending a direct message?

 

[*aca*]

I never suggested the human body was perfect, I suggested that it was intelligently designed. I never said the world is nice place, in fact, if you read the bible, it actually explains why earthquakes etc.. happen.

Ok, so you are saying the philosophy in itself is insuffucient? How is science providing anything other than that. Scientist make theories about how earth was created, big bang etc..

Osama Bin Laden claims to be religious, he is not. Why? do you know what the word "Islam" means? It actually mean "peace" in arabic. Please explain to me how a truly religious muslim would go to war and kill thousands of people under the name of god. Do you sense a form of hypocrisy here? I can easilly claim to be of a certain religion, why would you believe me when my actions are the exact opposite of what I suggested.

Terrorists are a bad example. When you go against the fundamentals of your religion, you aren't very religious are you? As for the prison stats. It applies to them too. If you are a true Christian for example, you wouldn't commit such obscene crimes because well, that would mean you aren't a Christian.

Again, I never said atheists are bad people. When you say you choose to have morals not because you fear god but because of your own integrity, you are very far off. What I tried to explain is that if it wasn't for the enviroment you live in Ex: T.v, friends, siblings, parents, internet.. you would have no morals. In our history, compassion was never showed to the poor or the lest fortunate
, we have always been pigs hungry for wealth and power. We never had morals.

Before Christianity, it was the era of the Roman Empire. they crucified people then. You say humans naturally have morals? Where were their morals then, did they think about ethics when they severed people's heads off? No. It was untill Christianity came that we saw a rise of a more moral world, a world where we knew right from wrong. This has blended into our society for 20 centuries. Even non christians will have morals because in some way or another they have been influenced by Christianity.

If you were living in a tribe in Africa, completely deprved of education or any communication with the outside world, you think you would be the same person? There are people in Africa to this day that commit disgusting inhumane acts, why don't they have morals if morality were actually imprinted in us since birth? Why are morals mainly seen in the Western civilization where Christianity dominated?

I believe you are simply denying the truth, the truth that we are naturally barbaric, stop saying that you have morals because you want to have morals. You really had no choice. You were brought up in a society where ethics and morals were practically spoon fed to a child. Just look at the atrocious things that happen in the third world countries, how can you honestly say that god has nothing to do with morals?

ok.

You refuted nothing of what i said.

1) our body is not intelligently designed. I could think of at least 100 improvements, and i make no claims that i am god.

2) bible says that natural disasters are work of the devil or work of god to punish people for being sinners. Science says that it's mostly due to tectonic plates moving. Which claim is more accurate?

3) Philosophy deals with abstracts and has no necessary base in reality. Science does. It explains how, rather than ought. Historically, philosophers were ignorant of science and made many ridiculous claims about nature. They were wrong.

4) Catholic church spends million of dollars a year trying to prevent people from using contraception. many are dying because of that. Is pope not a believer?
Osama does what he does because he believes that he can justify his actions by proper reading of Koran. Evangelical Christians are killing doctors that perform abortions based on their doctrine. Saudi sharia courts punish raped women for causing the rape. All of these people are not-religious according to you? To do bad things you must be an atheist then no?

It's all to easy. You just excluded any possibility of any bad deed being committed by any religious person. All of them are actually infidels. Thats called true Scotsman fallacy, check it out.

5) if i lived on my own, alone in the world, i would not be able to kill/rape/pillage . I am a product of millions of years of evolution and i live in society made up of my kind (although i some people on this planet does not deserve to be in that group). It is in my interest to be good to others, because they will be good to me. If i kill, other will like consider me a threat and kill me (in our primitive time).
Richard Dawkins, selfish gene - another book for you to read. If you want it in terms of philosophy rather than science (although closely related through evolution of our species) search Golden Rule. As animals we had morals on the level of the animals. Once we started living in groups, our morals evolved.

6) you have to give an example of the African tribe that live outside the boundaries of Golden rule. I don't think there is any. If anything, their crimes are/were committed in the name of religion or any other unsubstantiated belief.

I would be less educated, i would be wearing less clothes, i would speak different language, but i would still be human.

7) i simply dont know what to say on your last point, except that you are proving my point . Morals evolved as the society evolved. I am an animal. I have survival instinct and hardwired desire to spread my genes. IF i was only that, i would live in the wild like any other animal and do just that. I am human, and in certain way i am more than this. It does not make us special, just different kind of animal. We learned how to co-operate for our own benefit and with the society becoming more complex, rules become more complex

and again, atrocities in the third world countries happen because a)ignorance, b) religion. We in the western world were doing the same things to each other (and still doing it to certain extent) , just that we are less ignorant than many in the third world countries. Our wealth allowed us to further our knowledge and to, to a certain extend, break away from the ignorance that used to hold us back. And for that we have science to thank for

 

[Bjerknes]

So the Bible contains all facts? Moses was going to walk through a mountain pass with God, and God thought Moses might see His face, so he covered Moses' eyes with His Holy Hand as He passed, but it was okay that Moses saw His Holy Backside. Now that's really dumb.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

ok.

You refuted nothing of what i said.

1) our body is not intelligently designed. I could think of at least 100 improvements, and i make no claims that i am god.

+rep

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

So the Bible contains all facts? Moses was going to walk through a mountain pass with God, and God thought Moses might see His face, so he covered Moses' eyes with His Holy Hand as He passed, but it was okay that Moses saw His Holy Backside. Now that's really dumb.

The best thing is that if it is all fact, THIS MOTHER FUCKER thinks men have one less rib than women!

 

[*aca*]

A fiction story? You mean like Harry Potter?

It's history, you can't deny history.

Harry potter has as much claim to the truth and is as historical as bible, Koran, Vedas, greek mythology and so on....

 

[rounder]

If you bother to unstuck your head from your ass, you would realise he is saying its like concrete historic facts, the contents of the bible. I would assume even your tiny little brain would realise its a bid odd thing to say?

I mean, how is the story of the Babel tower a historical thing? Its not a symbolic story sending a direct message?

Not all the stories are literally real obviously. Most are though, Jesus healing the sick etc..

It's not me with my head stuck up my ass, it's you. I am calmly answering your questions when interestingly enough, you are getting a little too emotional. One would think it should be the exact opposite.

 

[Osman]

Jesus turns water into wine. That's a historical fact, a miracle.

I you don't believe it then that's your choice. You can't just deny it as part of hisorty just because it is inconvienient to what you think.

What you believe, and what you can prove, are entirely different things. Which is not a problem, your average man of faith say they believe in it, they dont bother with saying its historical fact this or that.

What I have issue with is your use of the word history. You mean you can date real life times to everything said in the bible? They are all historical facts? Do you even know of the meaning of fact? Facts isnt something you believe in, its something you prove, pinpoint exactly.

Now you said the bible is of historic facts (The frigging Pope wouldnt say that, he would say he believes in it, not can prove it, whats there to believe in if you can prove it?), will this be something you will take back later and say you never meant that, when you are shown for the bullshitter you are?

I dont mind you believing whatsoever (I believe in God myself), but twisting the use of history, I really find it extremely wack as someone who is fond of everything relating to history.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Not all the stories are literally real obviously. Most are though, Jesus healing the sick etc..

It's not me with my head stuck up my ass, it's you. I am calmly answering your questions when interestingly enough, you are getting a little too emotional. One would think it should be the exact opposite.

JESUS






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[rounder]

So the Bible contains all facts? Moses was going to walk through a mountain pass with God, and God thought Moses might see His face, so he covered Moses' eyes with His Holy Hand as He passed, but it was okay that Moses saw His Holy Backside. Now that's really dumb.

I already said the Bible isn't literal. It does have historic stories. Jesus being born in beith Lahem in Palestine, do you not believe that?