Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (122 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dinsdale
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If science at this very moment can not explain everything, in which way does that increase the probability of god existing?
Further, if i were to say "science can not explain everything, so it must be that aliens landed on this planet and planted the seed of life" , does my statement becomes probable in any way because science can not provide sufficient answer right now?
Once we say that "well, there is a probability that god did it" , we also have to admit that its also probable that aliens did it or that we are god's debris (good book, free online if anyone is interested) or that ......(fill in the blanks with any myth of creation created by human imagination).
I think that it is only intellectually honest option to say "we dont know ....yet
, but are working on finding out". The god hypothesis just messes things up and Occam Razor comes into picture.
Further, if i were to say "science can not explain everything, so it must be that aliens landed on this planet and planted the seed of life" , does my statement becomes probable in any way because science can not provide sufficient answer right now?
Once we say that "well, there is a probability that god did it" , we also have to admit that its also probable that aliens did it or that we are god's debris (good book, free online if anyone is interested) or that ......(fill in the blanks with any myth of creation created by human imagination).
I think that it is only intellectually honest option to say "we dont know ....yet
, but are working on finding out". The god hypothesis just messes things up and Occam Razor comes into picture.
From a purely philosphical point of view, I choose to believe that there exists a higher power.[/Qoute]
That's your freedom
Problem with philosophy is that it does not prove anything. The world is created or not. Its a question that deals with facts not abstract ideas, ie its a question of science not philosophy.
However low the probability is, the probability that there exist perfect creature capable of doing all that and not leave a trace of evidence of it's existence is infinitely lower.
Wrong.
Evolution is scientifically proven thousand time over and was observed in action, actually happening in fronT of scientist eyes. If you do not comprehend, can not hand wave it and say it's fool of loopholes.
If you want to further investigate, here is a list of observed evolution in action
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
Let me reverse this question. If, hypothetically speaking, tomorrow scientist come out with an absolute, irrefutable proof that god does not exist, who will you kill first? Who's daughter will you rape and which house will you robe?
By the best of estimates, in the USA, atheist make up approx 8 to 16 % of the whole population. At the same time, out of entire prisons population in the USA, only 0.21 % are atheists. (for further info google Denise Golumbaski research or check here http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm)
furthermore, what evidence do you have that Osama Bin Laden (or any fanatic of your choice) does not believe in god?
Well, i'm a married man with two kids. I live a very moral life. Never stole, killed or raped. I do not believe that god exist because there is no sufficient evidence for his/hers existence. My take is that i can take moral high ground over a theist because i live morally because i chose to, not because i'm a coward.
Well, irrefutable logic is just that. IF atheists are egoistic, it's easy to bring them down to their level. Show some evidence for your claims.
I find it hard to believe that i am egoistic when confronted by person that i will burn in hell for eternity because of the way i dont subscribe to their favourite truth.
Atheists are free spirits (well, in most of the cases) and will not be considered part of the heard. Thay are also smart enough to stand their ground. That you dont like it, it's your problem. That does not make atheists wrong in any way.
yet again, ignorance about something is not an argument. I cant teach you biology. Dawkins's Blind Watchmaker explains these things and rebuts all of what you said quite nicely.
Human body is a bad example. Our back is not well "designed" for walking on two legs. It would be perfect for if we were to use our hands for support and walk on all 4 (yeah, like monkey's do). Almost any bird has a better sight than humans, we cant survive in water, any stray dog has hearing 10 fold better than ours. Not to mention useless parts like appendix or perfect growth like cancers and tumors. We are perfect....right 
If everything needs a creator, who created god?
and at the same time creating earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, volcanoes?
This planet is perfect place to live, no?
and no scientist ever claimed that we appeared out of the blue. No scientist ever argued that the universe came out of the blue. Science comes up with hypothesis and attempts to falsify it. If it holds water, it remains until better explanation is around. Science explains pretty well how we came about and no intelligent design is necessary.
nb: stuff that you wrote in your post are typical canards that are argued by theists all over the internet. You said nothing that was not argued by theists in last few thousand years. We came long way since then. Check it out. You dont even need to go the the library. Internet is there for these things nowdays
cheers
Aca
That's your freedom
Problem with philosophy is that it does not prove anything. The world is created or not. Its a question that deals with facts not abstract ideas, ie its a question of science not philosophy.
However low the probability is, the probability that there exist perfect creature capable of doing all that and not leave a trace of evidence of it's existence is infinitely lower.
Wrong.
Evolution is scientifically proven thousand time over and was observed in action, actually happening in fronT of scientist eyes. If you do not comprehend, can not hand wave it and say it's fool of loopholes.
If you want to further investigate, here is a list of observed evolution in action
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
Let me reverse this question. If, hypothetically speaking, tomorrow scientist come out with an absolute, irrefutable proof that god does not exist, who will you kill first? Who's daughter will you rape and which house will you robe?
By the best of estimates, in the USA, atheist make up approx 8 to 16 % of the whole population. At the same time, out of entire prisons population in the USA, only 0.21 % are atheists. (for further info google Denise Golumbaski research or check here http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm)
furthermore, what evidence do you have that Osama Bin Laden (or any fanatic of your choice) does not believe in god?
Well, i'm a married man with two kids. I live a very moral life. Never stole, killed or raped. I do not believe that god exist because there is no sufficient evidence for his/hers existence. My take is that i can take moral high ground over a theist because i live morally because i chose to, not because i'm a coward.
Well, irrefutable logic is just that. IF atheists are egoistic, it's easy to bring them down to their level. Show some evidence for your claims.
I find it hard to believe that i am egoistic when confronted by person that i will burn in hell for eternity because of the way i dont subscribe to their favourite truth.
Atheists are free spirits (well, in most of the cases
) and will not be considered part of the heard. Thay are also smart enough to stand their ground. That you dont like it, it's your problem. That does not make atheists wrong in any way.yet again, ignorance about something is not an argument. I cant teach you biology. Dawkins's Blind Watchmaker explains these things and rebuts all of what you said quite nicely.
Human body is a bad example. Our back is not well "designed" for walking on two legs. It would be perfect for if we were to use our hands for support and walk on all 4 (yeah, like monkey's do
). Almost any bird has a better sight than humans, we cant survive in water, any stray dog has hearing 10 fold better than ours. Not to mention useless parts like appendix or perfect growth like cancers and tumors. We are perfect....right If everything needs a creator, who created god?
and at the same time creating earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, volcanoes?
This planet is perfect place to live, no?
and no scientist ever claimed that we appeared out of the blue. No scientist ever argued that the universe came out of the blue. Science comes up with hypothesis and attempts to falsify it. If it holds water, it remains until better explanation is around. Science explains pretty well how we came about and no intelligent design is necessary.
nb: stuff that you wrote in your post are typical canards that are argued by theists all over the internet. You said nothing that was not argued by theists in last few thousand years. We came long way since then. Check it out. You dont even need to go the the library. Internet is there for these things nowdays
cheers
Aca
The word outside is only applicable in space. Thus, "outside the universe" is a contradictio in terminis, because all space is in the universe. It is a generally accepted fact in science that time and space started existing along with the universe.
Well, check what William L. Craig for example has to say about it. The major difference is that god is spaceless and timeless, but I'm not going to repeat everything he said here. Honestly, if you can't see the logical difference between aliens and god, then you haven't even bothered to consider theism.
Well, check what William L. Craig for example has to say about it. The major difference is that god is spaceless and timeless, but I'm not going to repeat everything he said here. Honestly, if you can't see the logical difference between aliens and god, then you haven't even bothered to consider theism.
No, the definition of the universe is in itself a contradiction. That which contains all space. So what is it that contains the universe?
How can he be spaceless and timeless if the universe is limited in time and space? You're saying he doesn't live in the universe. So what is the place called that he lives in?
How can he be spaceless and timeless if the universe is limited in time and space? You're saying he doesn't live in the universe. So what is the place called that he lives in?
This is just historically completely inaccurate. I'm sorry, but if you intend on making things up, don't bother.
So there is a god, because a book exists? Surely you can see how faulty this reasoning is yourself?
Unintentionally you confirmed that we can explain it all as we keep evolving and keep expanding our knowlegde and continue to find answer for questions (although these answers often create more questions).
The very notion of god is that he is transcendent.
So there is a god, because a book exists? Surely you can see how faulty this reasoning is yourself?
Unintentionally you confirmed that we can explain it all as we keep evolving and keep expanding our knowlegde and continue to find answer for questions (although these answers often create more questions).
The very notion of god is that he is transcendent.The universe is constrained by space and time. We can't think outside the universe because we live within those constraints, just like we can't see more than 3 spatial dimensions eventhough there are very probably more. (and it is science that claims this)
God transcends time and space, so he transcends the universe. This is pretty basic stuff, Martin. I thought you read books about this stuff.
God transcends time and space, so he transcends the universe. This is pretty basic stuff, Martin. I thought you read books about this stuff.
This is getting rather philosophical, but I stand by what I said that science will never explain everything. Even if you can define the bounds of the universe, where is the end of mathematics? And physics keeps looking for the ever smaller building blocks of matter, we have no idea if there is an "end" to that.
I never suggested the human body was perfect, I suggested that it was intelligently designed. I never said the world is nice place, in fact, if you read the bible, it actually explains why earthquakes etc.. happen.
Ok, so you are saying the philosophy in itself is insuffucient? How is science providing anything other than that. Scientist make theories about how earth was created, big bang etc..
Osama Bin Laden claims to be religious, he is not. Why? do you know what the word "Islam" means? It actually mean "peace" in arabic. Please explain to me how a truly religious muslim would go to war and kill thousands of people under the name of god. Do you sense a form of hypocrisy here? I can easilly claim to be of a certain religion, why would you believe me when my actions are the exact opposite of what I suggested.
Terrorists are a bad example. When you go against the fundamentals of your religion, you aren't very religious are you? As for the prison stats. It applies to them too. If you are a true Christian for example, you wouldn't commit such obscene crimes because well, that would mean you aren't a Christian.
Again, I never said atheists are bad people. When you say you choose to have morals not because you fear god but because of your own integrity, you are very far off. What I tried to explain is that if it wasn't for the enviroment you live in Ex: T.v, friends, siblings, parents, internet.. you would have no morals. In our history, compassion was never showed to the poor or the lest fortunate
, we have always been pigs hungry for wealth and power. We never had morals.
Before Christianity, it was the era of the Roman Empire. they crucified people then. You say humans naturally have morals? Where were their morals then, did they think about ethics when they severed people's heads off? No. It was untill Christianity came that we saw a rise of a more moral world, a world where we knew right from wrong. This has blended into our society for 20 centuries. Even non christians will have morals because in some way or another they have been influenced by Christianity.
If you were living in a tribe in Africa, completely deprved of education or any communication with the outside world, you think you would be the same person? There are people in Africa to this day that commit disgusting inhumane acts, why don't they have morals if morality were actually imprinted in us since birth? Why are morals mainly seen in the Western civilization where Christianity dominated?
I believe you are simply denying the truth, the truth that we are naturally barbaric, stop saying that you have morals because you want to have morals. You really had no choice. You were brought up in a society where ethics and morals were practically spoon fed to a child. Just look at the atrocious things that happen in the third world countries, how can you honestly say that god has nothing to do with morals?
Ok, so you are saying the philosophy in itself is insuffucient? How is science providing anything other than that. Scientist make theories about how earth was created, big bang etc..
Osama Bin Laden claims to be religious, he is not. Why? do you know what the word "Islam" means? It actually mean "peace" in arabic. Please explain to me how a truly religious muslim would go to war and kill thousands of people under the name of god. Do you sense a form of hypocrisy here? I can easilly claim to be of a certain religion, why would you believe me when my actions are the exact opposite of what I suggested.
Terrorists are a bad example. When you go against the fundamentals of your religion, you aren't very religious are you? As for the prison stats. It applies to them too. If you are a true Christian for example, you wouldn't commit such obscene crimes because well, that would mean you aren't a Christian.
Again, I never said atheists are bad people. When you say you choose to have morals not because you fear god but because of your own integrity, you are very far off. What I tried to explain is that if it wasn't for the enviroment you live in Ex: T.v, friends, siblings, parents, internet.. you would have no morals. In our history, compassion was never showed to the poor or the lest fortunate
, we have always been pigs hungry for wealth and power. We never had morals.
Before Christianity, it was the era of the Roman Empire. they crucified people then. You say humans naturally have morals? Where were their morals then, did they think about ethics when they severed people's heads off? No. It was untill Christianity came that we saw a rise of a more moral world, a world where we knew right from wrong. This has blended into our society for 20 centuries. Even non christians will have morals because in some way or another they have been influenced by Christianity.
If you were living in a tribe in Africa, completely deprved of education or any communication with the outside world, you think you would be the same person? There are people in Africa to this day that commit disgusting inhumane acts, why don't they have morals if morality were actually imprinted in us since birth? Why are morals mainly seen in the Western civilization where Christianity dominated?
I believe you are simply denying the truth, the truth that we are naturally barbaric, stop saying that you have morals because you want to have morals. You really had no choice. You were brought up in a society where ethics and morals were practically spoon fed to a child. Just look at the atrocious things that happen in the third world countries, how can you honestly say that god has nothing to do with morals?
So you actually leave room for the possible existence of god?
Mathematics is invented by the human mind. It is an internal logical system based on a few axioms, so I really don't know what you mean by "the end of mathematics". And physicists actually have a (nearly) exact value of the size of the smallest possible entity, it's called the Planck length.
I'ma call it a forum day now. Laters.
Mathematics is invented by the human mind. It is an internal logical system based on a few axioms, so I really don't know what you mean by "the end of mathematics". And physicists actually have a (nearly) exact value of the size of the smallest possible entity, it's called the Planck length.
I'ma call it a forum day now. Laters.
I've seen the light dazzle in myriad hues upon the river, as the many rushed by too busy to notice
I have shared a moments glance and rueful smile with a love never to be held, as the bus pulled away too soon.
I have cried at the sound of life's first breath.
I have cried at the sound of life's last.
I have shouted, loathed, cursed, begged devinity.
Faith had left me. Faith returned. Faith is ever in doubt, but never out of reach.
I have shared a moments glance and rueful smile with a love never to be held, as the bus pulled away too soon.
I have cried at the sound of life's first breath.
I have cried at the sound of life's last.
I have shouted, loathed, cursed, begged devinity.
Faith had left me. Faith returned. Faith is ever in doubt, but never out of reach.