Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (87 Viewers)

[Martin]

Not sure if I did. Evolution assumes lifeforms adapt to their environment by natural selection. Coincidentally, a mutation of a certain property is more succesful than the original version. e.g. butterflies with black pigment can obtain better camouphlage in environments where buildings have turned black because of air pollution. Pigment is obviously a physical property. But which (kind of) property mutated so that species with a natural urge for S&R started existing?

You're asking "show me the survival instinct on a map of the human anatomy". Sorry, can't help you there.

No, but it's possible to believe in god and to not be religious.

And?

 

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[Dominic]

Well there weren't a lot of career options for a 40 year old monk in those days. Today you'd go to a career counselor and he'd give you a range of options.

Not really. I was reffering to the time, where the church was the world's most powerful institute.

 

[*aca*]

Not sure if I did. Evolution assumes lifeforms adapt to their environment by natural selection. Coincidentally, a mutation of a certain property is more succesful than the original version. e.g. butterflies with black pigment can obtain better camouphlage in environments where buildings have turned black because of air pollution. Pigment is obviously a physical property. But which (kind of) property mutated so that species with a natural urge for S&R started existing?

The life started in the primordial soup. There was no mutation, at least not initially. Just initial so called "replicators" that were trying to get an advantage - ie replicate more than others.

That's the current theory of origins of life (i know there is much more to it, but this is a football forum and we all have a life to live )

In any case, bio genesis is a scientific theory based on evidence that is currently available. It could be wrong in some aspects (but not entirely) and is subject to change if and when new evidence sees the light of the day. Even if it's wrong, that does not mean that by default the door to god are automatically opened and we can peacefully say "god didit" and leave it at that.

No, but it's possible to believe in god and to not be religious.

I would say that it is possible to believe in god of some kind, but not to follow the rituals of any particular religion.

 

[Dinsdale]

You're asking "show me the survival instinct on a map of the human anatomy". Sorry, can't help you there.

Right, so I didn't really answer my question myself. It's really hard to explain where the urge for survival and replication comes from.

And?

And so it's unfair to believe god doesn't exist because of personal adversity towards religion. (which I also have btw)

 

[*aca*]

Well if you are religious you can believe that there is an afterlife, that miracles happen, that god will punish us if we behave immorally etc...

If you just believe in god, you only believe god created the universe, and that's it. No mysical assumptions.

Well, saying "God created universe" it's quite mystical and miraculous by definition. It does not explain how it happened nor does it explain how you know that. Aliens did it maybe?

I would say that there are people that believe in some sort of "higher power" or that some sort of "woo" is out there and stop at that. Me, as a person that likes to live his life by the reality that one can grasp, have no issues with that kind of people. IF you believe in "personal god" and keep it to yourself and you don't hear the voices in your head ordering you to go on a shooting rampage, it's your business.

Unfortunately, nice chunk of believers do not act like that. Most organized religion are trying and have been trying to impose their "truth" as the only "truth" there is regardless if you agree with the tenants of their religion or not.

 

[rounder]

You can truly believe in God and still massacre people. It depends on how do you see God and how do you comprehend what's good and what's bad.

If i live in 11th century Bulgarian mountain village, if i don't go to school at all if i know nothing else but being a shepard and if the priest tells me that God wants me to kill the infidels in Jerusalem and how i will be rewarded in the after life for every infidel life i took, you can be sure that i'll kill those evil infidel Jews and Muslims and i'll do it exactly because i truly believe that that is what God wanted me to do.

Yes but that is not even close to reality. Christianity promotes peace and is greatly against violence. Jesus' teachings are fundamentally about forgiveness and peace. If someone commits murder, that is totally against Christianity, how can he still be considered a Christian. Like I said, if he were truly a Christian, he would fear killing etc.. He would naturally refrain from it. I'm not saying Atheists are bad people by any stretch of the imagination, I am saying humans are naturally bad. We aren't born with morals, we are taught them. This is a fact.

It's difficult to keep this subject strictly on Theism because some religions do not entirely promote peace although most do.

I understand why atheists hate religion. Religion has historically obliterated regions in the world, or more accurately, people who falsely use religion as their cause have caused so much destruction. Religion was never intended to cause violence, people have understood religion in their own way and have used it as a tool if you will to kill. It has almost been a license to kill. This is what angers me, these idiots have done the exact opposite of what their religion tells them to do.
This is why there is so much hate for religion.

 

[Dinsdale]

In any case, bio genesis is a scientific theory based on evidence that is currently available. It could be wrong in some aspects (but not entirely) and is subject to change if and when new evidence sees the light of the day. Even if it's wrong, that does not mean that by default the door to god are automatically opened and we can peacefully say "god didit" and leave it at that.

Of course not. I'm trying to say that the existence of god is plausible, eventhough I have a tendency to not believe in god and hope that science can eventually explain everything.

I would say that it is possible to believe in god of some kind, but not to follow the rituals of any particular religion.

And not to believe something a certain religion proclaims.

 

[Martin]

And so it's unfair to believe god doesn't exist because of personal adversity towards religion. (which I also have btw)

Unfair is an emotionally loaded word, as if god was being treated unfairly by us mean people. You mean they are independent things, which I agree with.

 

[Dinsdale]

Well, saying "God created universe" it's quite mystical and miraculous by definition. It does not explain how it happened nor does it explain how you know that. Aliens did it maybe?

I would say that there are people that believe in some sort of "higher power" or that some sort of "woo" is out there and stop at that. Me, as a person that likes to live his life by the reality that one can grasp, have no issues with that kind of people. IF you believe in "personal god" and keep it to yourself and you don't hear the voices in your head ordering you to go on a shooting rampage, it's your business.

Well, saying the universe came out of nothing and has no cause, or that the universe was born out of singularities who spontaneously started exploding, is quite mysterious too, isn't it? Truth is, scientists cannot come up with a better explanation than theologists for the moment.

Unfortunately, nice chunk of believers do not act like that. Most organized religion are trying and have been trying to impose their "truth" as the only "truth" there is regardless if you agree with the tenants of their religion or not.

Yes. That's why I already strongly stressed out many times that there is a difference between theism and religion.

 

[Martin]

hope that science can eventually explain everything.

Science will never explain everything. The purpose of science is more directed towards asking questions than to giving answers. With every new insight comes 5 new discoveries that we don't understand, and that until now we didn't even know we didn't understand.

Science isn't a substitute for religion. People who have a God-sized hole in their mind will never be satisfied with science.

The difference is some of us don't need a god in our lives.

 

[rounder]

From a purely philosphical point of view, I choose to believe that there exists a higher power. The massive improbability that all of this was created by mere chance is the reason I believe in a divine power. The whole theory of evolution does not seem reasonable to me; it has endless loopholes and question marks theoretically.

On the topic of morailty, if you didn't fear god and had the chance to steal loads of money from someone knowing for sure that you wouldn't get caught, would you do it? A god fearing man wouldn't. He knows that the consequences to his actions go beyond the law, reputation, and respect. His consequences come after his death and he fears he will be eternally punished.

To me, another piece of evidence that has convinced me is intelligent design. The human body is a very good example, DNA is afterall a design; it is a very intricate, detailed, and intelligent design. How can something so intelligent come by chance? DNA carries information, where does this information come from? Who invented it? God is the only logical answer here, not evolution.

Look infront of you, you will see a computer screen so intelligently designed and manufactured. You would obvously know that it is man made; that it is designed by people. It didn't just appear out of the blue. It's the same with nature. Nature's intelligent design suggests that there must have been a creator, a higher power capable of manufacturing such intelligent design.

That's what I meant. I also must add you're not making a very strong case for theism, unfortunately.

.

I made these two statements trying to make a case for theism. They were ignored, probably because no one has an answer to them.

 

[Dominic]

You can't deny evolution. It's proven, you can see it happen every day. Also your piece on religion further above is quite wrong as well.

 

[*aca*]

Of course not. I'm trying to say that the existence of god is plausible, eventhough I have a tendency to not believe in god and hope that science can eventually explain everything.

If science at this very moment can not explain everything, in which way does that increase the probability of god existing?

Further, if i were to say "science can not explain everything, so it must be that aliens landed on this planet and planted the seed of life" , does my statement becomes probable in any way because science can not provide sufficient answer right now?

Once we say that "well, there is a probability that god did it" , we also have to admit that its also probable that aliens did it or that we are god's debris (good book, free online if anyone is interested) or that ......(fill in the blanks with any myth of creation created by human imagination).

I think that it is only intellectually honest option to say "we dont know ....yet , but are working on finding out". The god hypothesis just messes things up and Occam Razor comes into picture.

And not to believe something a certain religion proclaims.

Well yes. Religious people have a tendency to cherry pick nice bits and ignore nasty stuff. There is a good reason why.

 

[*aca*]

I made these two statements trying to make a case for theism. They were ignored, probably because no one has an answer to them.

Your wishes are my command. watch this space

 

[rounder]

You can't deny evolution. It's proven, you can see it happen every day. Also your piece on religion further above is quite wrong as well.

I am not entirely denying evolution. No one can, I said it has its theoretical flaws.

Care to elaborate how my piece on religion is wrong, or will you bluntly just say it is wrong?

 

[Dinsdale]

Science will never explain everything. The purpose of science is more directed towards asking questions than to giving answers. With every new insight comes 5 new discoveries that we don't understand, and that until now we didn't even know we didn't understand.

There are scientists who are dedicating their carreer to trying to explain the beginning of the universe, and thus trying to explain everything.

Science isn't a substitute for religion. People who have a God-sized hole in their mind will never be satisfied with science.

No, but theism is a substitute for science. If I'm not mistaken, theists basically say god is the cause for everything, and that man cannot grasp this cause because it is timeless and spaceless.

Unfair is an emotionally loaded word, as if god was being treated unfairly by us mean people. You mean they are independent things, which I agree with.

Logically unfair. I'm never assuming god exists.

 

[Alen]

You can't deny evolution. It's proven, you can see it happen every day.

Yup, no need to look any further than the humans. We have many very strong evolutionary traits: bipedal locomotion, intellect, organization, thumbs, etc.

Btw, here's a great song for kids on this topic:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=FOHPQusSc5Q

 

[rounder]

If science at this very moment can not explain everything, in which way does that increase the probability of god existing?

Further, if i were to say "science can not explain everything, so it must be that aliens landed on this planet and planted the seed of life" , does my statement becomes probable in any way because science can not provide sufficient answer right now?

Once we say that "well, there is a probability that god did it" , we also have to admit that its also probable that aliens did it or that we are god's debris (good book, free online if anyone is interested) or that ......(fill in the blanks with any myth of creation created by human imagination).

I think that it is only intellectually honest option to say "we dont know ....yet , but are working on finding out". The god hypothesis just messes things up and Occam Razor comes into picture.



Well yes. Religious people have a tendency to cherry pick nice bits and ignore nasty stuff. There is a good reason why.

Because there isn't a historical book(ex:Bible) that suggests the existence of aliens. If there is, please let me know, I would be more than interested to learn about it.

 

[rounder]

No, but theism is a substitute for science. If I'm not mistaken, theists basically say god is the cause for everything, and that man cannot grasp this cause because it is timeless and spaceless.

.

"Man's logic is limited". This is a statement most of us refuse to accept because of our ego and our absolute denying of something being more intelligent than us. It is very true however, man's logic has actually evolved through time, different ways of thinking, new conclusions etc.. Who's to say that we know now is the ultimate truth, 100 years from now we could be laughing at the theory of evolution for example. We are continuously evolving and as long as mankind exists, we will never know the truth for ourselves. This is what the Bible possibly suggests.

 

[Martin]

There are scientists who are dedicating their carreer to trying to explain the beginning of the universe, and thus trying to explain everything.

It won't. What's outside the universe?