Do you think Buffon will be any good when he returns? (5 Viewers)

[rounder]

He is a difference maker. By one save he can change an aspect of the game. What he has done so far with us clearly shows he is irreplaceable for the time being. What Buffon can do, no other goalkeeper can. A great goalkeeper for me is not one who only makes spectacular saves, as Gigi has no problem with, but also to have an impact on the team by just his presence.

You were mistaken with your "Buffon isn't super anymore" statement. If you can't understand that, then I don't care.

And also, it isn't fair to compare Cesar with Buffon in the last couple of seasons as one of them was injured for a long period of time.

You know, I constantly hear people around here make statements like these and I've never understood how they were relevant to the player's ability and what they even meant in the first place. Buffon is super because he has a 'presence'. How would you even begin to quantify that? We had one of our worst years defensively in Juventus history last year and you tell me Buffon has a presence?


Let's assume that he does, and that him being on the pitch automatically makes the players perform better. Why did we do so badly last year? What about Buffon's presence has made the situation better than it would have been if he wasn't 'present'?

 

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[Klin]

You know, I constantly hear people around here make statements like these and I've never understood how they were relevant to the player's ability and what they even meant in the first place. Buffon is super because he has a 'presence'. How would you even begin to quantify that? We had one of our worst years defensively in Juventus history last year and you tell me Buffon has a presence?


Let's assume that he does, and that him being on the pitch automatically makes the players perform better. Why did we do so badly last year? What about Buffon's presence has made the situation better than it would have been if he wasn't 'present'?

You can't be serious trying to prove your point by bringing last season's performance as an example. Any player could not have made a difference in last season's team. Hell, even Del Piero, Juventus' overall best player and club legend couldn't make a difference. There was a serious mentality problem in that team.

 

[rounder]

You can't be serious trying to prove your point by bringing last season's performance as an example. Any player could not have made a difference in last season's team. Hell, even Del Piero, Juventus' overall best player and club legend couldn't make a difference. There was a serious mentality problem in that team.

Good, so what is this whole 'presence' thing about?

If it doesn't make a bad situation better( Buffon's presence didn't rectify our team's problems) then is it supposed to make a good situation even better? Can you give me an example of when Buffon just being on the field made our players perform better?

You see where the problem is with what you're saying? When you say 'I evaluate the best goalkeepers not only according to their saves but also their presence', you're really just begging the question, aren't you?

It's great to defend a club legend like Buffon, but I just think it's insulting to them when we defend them by saying things that don't really mean anything.

 

[Klin]

Good, so what is this whole 'presence' thing about?

If it doesn't make a bad situation better( Buffon's presence didn't rectify our team's problems) then is it supposed to make a good situation even better? Can you give me an example of when Buffon just being on the field made our players perform better?

You see where the problem is with what you're saying? When you say 'I evaluate the best goalkeepers not only according to their saves but also their presence', you're really just begging the question, aren't you?

It's great to defend a club legend like Buffon, but I just think it's insulting to them when we defend them by saying things that don't really mean anything.

Take a look at our games when we had him in goal and when we hadn't. If you fail to see it, then I'm done with you. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

 

[Bozi]

ok,I'll bite
Presence in a goalkeeper is something that is most probable immeasurable, there is no scale for it,you either have it or you do not. take Storari for instance,he has been excellent for us,but he is a shot stopper.
a keeper with presence dominates his area,he comes for (and claims) crosses,he stands tall when a player is through on goal and makes himself big,he makes good saves by closing down the angles so that all the forward will see is a very small area of goal

but most importantly a keeper with presence is a keeper who instils confidence in the whole back line,guides the defence, instructs them,keeps them concentrated and who they know will be up to the task should they (god forbid) fail to do their job and allow a man through.
Buffon does not have "presence" in the box,he owns the box

 

[swag]

Oh, screw that. I want him on the squad so I can see Alena Seredova shaking her mommy-pops in the stands.

 

[rounder]

ok,I'll bite
Presence in a goalkeeper is something that is most probable immeasurable, there is no scale for it,you either have it or you do not. take Storari for instance,he has been excellent for us,but he is a shot stopper.
a keeper with presence dominates his area,he comes for (and claims) crosses,he stands tall when a player is through on goal and makes himself big,he makes good saves by closing down the angles so that all the forward will see is a very small area of goal

but most importantly a keeper with presence is a keeper who instils confidence in the whole back line,guides the defence, instructs them,keeps them concentrated and who they know will be up to the task should they (god forbid) fail to do their job and allow a man through.
Buffon does not have "presence" in the box,he owns the box

Isn't that part of being a good goalkeeper? And isn't it something every professional goalkeeper should naturally be good at?


And the second part of the post is the part that I never get. So you're saying he talks to the players and makes sure that they don't fall asleep; so he's sort of supervising a bunch of preschoolers then?

I don't buy that. I don't buy into this whole thing because I refuse to believe that it takes the 'presence' of a goalkeeper to make sure the players are doing their job. I notice that Buffon talks to the players a lot more, and yells a lot more than Storari for example. I think the mistake is associating that with genuine usefulness.

How about this. Buffon just yells because he's been at Juve for ages and feels like he has that authority, not because the team needs him to do so?

And isn't the yelling and and making sure the players are up to task part of the coach's job anyway?

Point is, when judging a goalkeeper, I think it's a lot more coherent to judge him based on attributes that can actually be measured and directly be seen on the pitch rather rather than anything else.

Maybe Buffon's presence really is good for the team, maybe it isn't; the problem is there's no way of telling. It's kind of like saying 'Yeah, Motta is a bad fullback but his running in offence keeps the opposing team on its toes and think twice before attacking Juve wide'; that's an example of a statement that could actually make sense in a way but in no means is provable. Therefore, it's just irrelevant in discussion; same goes for Buffon.

 

[Nomuken]

Buffon is going to tell Storari " That'll do pig....that'll do"

 

[rounder]

I liked Storari. I thought he performed well over expectations.

 

[JuveJay]

I'd say on par, given his last season, maybe slightly above as there is more pressure here.

 

[MikeM]

Isn't that part of being a good goalkeeper? And isn't it something every professional goalkeeper should naturally be good at?


And the second part of the post is the part that I never get. So you're saying he talks to the players and makes sure that they don't fall asleep; so he's sort of supervising a bunch of preschoolers then?

I don't buy that. I don't buy into this whole thing because I refuse to believe that it takes the 'presence' of a goalkeeper to make sure the players are doing their job. I notice that Buffon talks to the players a lot more, and yells a lot more than Storari for example. I think the mistake is associating that with genuine usefulness.

How about this. Buffon just yells because he's been at Juve for ages and feels like he has that authority, not because the team needs him to do so?

And isn't the yelling and and making sure the players are up to task part of the coach's job anyway?

Point is, when judging a goalkeeper, I think it's a lot more coherent to judge him based on attributes that can actually be measured and directly be seen on the pitch rather rather than anything else.

Maybe Buffon's presence really is good for the team, maybe it isn't; the problem is there's no way of telling. It's kind of like saying 'Yeah, Motta is a bad fullback but his running in offence keeps the opposing team on its toes and think twice before attacking Juve wide'; that's an example of a statement that could actually make sense in a way but in no means is provable. Therefore, it's just irrelevant in discussion; same goes for Buffon.

You don't know anything about a keeper's interaction with his defence?

I'm not going to say Buffon's a god with this skill or anything (although he could be lol) but there is definitely something there between the goalie and the defence.

We could use Motta as an example when he's in his own world out there. It's possible that Storari won't be on top of him like Buffon would and not only that but if Buffon is yelling at you, you're going to listen.

Again, I'm not saying that's the case but that sort of stuff is tangible.

Plus there are so many other things like how your keeper reacts during an adverse time in the game. Buffon will be calm, will be calming the defence with his words (sounds gay but it's real).

Crosses in the air, corners. The defence will have more confidence in Buffon, more familiarity, etc.

 

[Raz]

3EBlind, not everything is exactly measurable but that should not make it totally irrelevant.

You can easily see the difference of this "presence" when comparing Peter Cech with Gigi.

 

[Lion]

his presence is also his influence on the pitch. don't forget buffon is a legendary player and he commands respect from both his teammates and rival players.

except for that faggot thiago motta

 

[rounder]

I never said Buffon doesn't have some sort of presence. I said, that when deciding which goalkeeper is better; things like a player's presence and charisma become irrelevant.


If I asked you, who is better, Pele or Maradona? Would anyone really be interested in knowing who has a more significant influence on his teammates, or has a more commanding presence? Probably not.

And I say that because these statements are subjective. I may think that Buffon has charisma, and you disagree; we can't really move on from there.

I'm aware that not everything has to be measurable. I'm aware that there's more to it than that. But these things are important only if you want to make value judgments or opinions.

For example, I like Buffon because I feel he is extremely charismatic. That's a valid statement. You're perfectly entitled to justify your opinion with anything you want.

But when you say, Buffon is better than Cech because he has a greater presence and you assume that it's obvious, just remember that it really isn't. I'm pretty sure Chelsea fans will disagree with us about this question. But when you give me figures that indicate a high correlation between clean sheets and Buffon playing for us, for example, then I can see what you're hinting at.

 

[Raz]

I think if you would ask some third party(not Juve or Chelsea fans) this question, the probability that people would pick Gigi would be very high(besed on this "presence" attribute ).

And in my opinion stats isn't the most important factor, like for instance lets take assists, the midfielder or winger can do perferct passes and but the striker will not finish them, so should you base your judgment solely on measurable data then? The same with maradona and pele, based on stats Pele is the winner without a question, with goals, awards, trophies... But we still compare them and think of them of somewhat equals and why is that? It is not because of measurable data it is because of this subjective human factor.

And it is the same with Buffon and any other player, you shouldn't disregards stats at all, but you shouldn't disregard the these inmeasurable in numbers things that only humans and not compilers can see. Consider team chemistry, can you really measure this? I think no, but I think you would agree that better chemistry gives better results.

 

[rounder]

I think if you would ask some third party(not Juve or Chelsea fans) this question, the probability that people would pick Gigi would be very high(besed on this "presence" attribute ).

And in my opinion stats isn't the most important factor, like for instance lets take assists, the midfielder or winger can do perferct passes and but the striker will not finish them, so should you base your judgment solely on measurable data then? The same with maradona and pele, based on stats Pele is the winner without a question, with goals, awards, trophies... But we still compare them and think of them of somewhat equals and why is that? It is not because of measurable data it is because of this subjective human factor.

And it is the same with Buffon and any other player, you shouldn't disregards stats at all, but you shouldn't disregard the these inmeasurable in numbers things that only humans and not compilers can see. Consider team chemistry, can you really measure this? I think no, but I think you would agree that better chemistry gives better results.

Okay, there is an exception to every rule. Occasionally, there will be cases where statistics are not enough. In most cases, however, statistics don't lie.

The team that ends up scoring the greatest number of goals in the league is very likely to have had the strongest attack. A team that ends up conceding the greatest number of goals is very likely to have the weakest defense, and is probably a relegation team.

It's the same with individual players. Let's say we were arguing over which season was by far Trezeguet's best season with us. Most probably, we will refer to the seasons in which he produced the greatest number of goals plus assists.

You are referring to the extremely rare cases where numbers trick you. But remember that this only happens in one or maybe two games, but over the course of the season, it's nearly impossible that numbers are still lying.

Do you see where I'm getting at here? To sum it up.

-Stats is the best measure to evaluate a player's perfomance or his ability.
-Numbers might not depict the whole truth, but this occurs very rarely.

Evaluating players after one game is different form evaluating them after an entire season. And that's the beauty of numbers, after all, they will inevitably reveal the truth.

Team chemistry is an interesting point you bring up. Think about it for a second. What determines team chemistry? What determines whether or not a team plays well together if not for final score lines and statistics?

In other words, how do you decide which team has better team chemistry? Now, you can tell me that just by watching them play, you can tell. This brings us back to the point I'm making.

If they are playing with good team chemistry, they will probably score more, concede less, and win more games. Therefore, when I want to compare the chemistry of two different teams. If the difference in these statistics is significant enough, then one can easily decide who has better team chemistry.

 

[Klin]

Do you see where I'm getting at here? To sum it up.

-Stats is the best measure to evaluate a player's perfomance or his ability.
-Numbers might not depict the whole truth, but this occurs very rarely.

Evaluating players after one game is different form evaluating them after an entire season. And that's the beauty of numbers, after all, they will inevitably reveal the truth.

Weren't you the one who said that Amauri is capable of scoring 20 goals in a season few months ago, even if his stats show otherwise?

Talk about irony.

 

[rounder]

Weren't you the one who said that Amauri is capable of scoring 20 goals in a season few months ago, even if his stats show otherwise?

Talk about irony.

Careful, don't confuse two completely different questions.

Question 1.
Is Amauri one of the best strikers in Serie A?

This calls for classical statistics.

Question 2.
Will Amauri score more goals?

This is more of an educated guess.


When I said Amauri is capable of doing better, there was no need for stats as it was purely my opinion. What I'm saying is not conclusive.

But when I say Amauri is better than Del piero? Then I must give you tangible evidence that point to this.

 

[Klin]

Careful, don't confuse two completely different questions.

Question 1.
Is Amauri one of the best strikers in Serie A?

This calls for classical statistics.

Question 2.
Will Amauri score more goals?

This is more of an educated guess.


When I said Amauri is capable of doing better, there was no need for stats as it was purely my opinion. What I'm saying is not conclusive.

But when I say Amauri is better than Del piero? Then I must give you tangible evidence that point to this.

So who is to stop me from implying that Sissoko will have 20 assists for us or for Iaquinta to score 9 bicycle kick goals this season?

The answer is no one. But I'd still look like an idiot.

 

[Raz]

Yes in the end of the day the goal scored and conceded is what matters. But that still doesn't show the full picture, you have to judge yourself based on what data you have and what you have seen yourself.

To me it comes down to, do I want an inspirational goalkeeper or just a regular shot stopper, and in most cases I will pick the inspirational one. And it's not because of data or anything it's just based on what I have seen and what I feel would be a better.

Your is a valid choice too, just that the attributes we pick on which to judge are different.