Del Piero: a hero or a choker? (9 Viewers)

dpforever · Sep 27, 2003

Baggio??

You must be kidding, whereas Baggio was happy for winning 1 Scudetto with Juve, Del Piero celebrated 5 Scudetti and lead the club to prestigous honours like the Champions League and the Intercontinental Cup .. and don't dare say Del Piero didn't do much as he was rated Most Valuable Player in that particular match ..

You try to show the negatives of Del Piero by keeping reminding us about Euro2000 and not the great seasons of 95, 96 with Juve or the recent Scudetto wins and Champions League final ..

Sivori, Charles, and Boniperti were all great players did extremely well domestically and scored goals for fun but didn't do much in the European and International scene as Del Piero did ..

Mind you, Del Piero scored more goals in Europe than Bettega ..

Not Top 5 material?? I'll let you judge that ..

Implying that Baggio and Zidane did more to Juve than Del Piero did is just shameful .. I still blame Zidane for his red card against Deportivo for that CL exit ..

Layce Erayce · Sep 27, 2003

zidane was dedicated to himself more than anything else whereas ale was married to the team. not literally.

Dj Juve · Sep 27, 2003

good thing you included that

Layce Erayce · Sep 27, 2003

seriously

denco · Sep 27, 2003

Where do u get that I don't like Baggio from? The fact that you do not praise Dp whatever he does, does it mean you don't like him?

Did you ever see Sivori and Charles play? You rate Tardelli higher than Dp or are you just name dropping?

which Baggio are you referring to by the way since you meantioned twice, surely not Dino

Now as far as careers go it would be madness to say Dp was a better player than Zidane or Platini or even Roberto Baggio but I am talking about the wearing of the black and white jersey not what they did for France or wherever else they played

I am tired of saying I like Baggio , just because I do not conform to the overrating of a career just because he has a lot of fans who always use non football issues like he broke his knees and been the victim of monster manager (all Mills and Boom stuff)

Name me any othe rplayer in history whose fans talk so much about but has won precious little in his career and I would give you a prize. It is not anti Baggio , its just putting things in perspective

Tardelli was not as good as Deschamps, Davids and Jugovic imo

Mate you girlfriend analogy is quite interesting

mate · Sep 28, 2003

The number or trophys are not a way to value a player... or is Pessotto better than Maradona?

Btw I was not talking about "contribute to Juve" read my post carefully; I was talking about "value" and in this case I'm sorry but DP cannot even to compared to Baggio and also Zidane, they are from an other planet.

Maybe becouse you spended so mutch time and words vs him?

And did you? How can be so sure they was not better than DP?

Remember that nobody here overrate Baggio. It's you the one who 4 misterious reasons always want to say something to justify that he is considered from everybody one of the best players of soccer history.
If all the world consider him that grate your single voice do not count that mutch, actually. You are free to say that you don't like him and bla bla bla but remember that your voice is "out of the courous" so you cannot say that we overrate him. He is one of the gratest players of soccer history, almost every body agrees infact he was rated the 4°, you don't agree... so it's easy to understand that you don't like him, cause you cannot pretend that you are holding the truth and all the rest of the world is crazy.

The victorys of the teams, are an issue to value a player just 4 who do not have a clue about soccer and just watch at the "palmares" without seeing any match in his whole life... cause if you say they count Mancini was schit, Totti is schit while Michele Padovano is champion.... Del Piero, Tacchinardi, Conte are better than Maradona, ecc...

The only trophys that can rate a single player are Goden Ball, Fifa World Player and this kind of award but they are actually sometimes too sobjective too, so probably the most realible voice are "peaple" so... a player is grate when he is considered grate from everybody... Mancini (4 example) won very little with his teams and no personals awards at all too, but here in Italy he is considerd in the bests (italians) of last 20 years, so probably he is... that's it.

You cannot discuss too mutch a player who is considered in worlds bests of always, you may say he has not your simpaty but you cannot hope to change the history or what...

P.S.: The fact that Roby had a lot of problems with his knee and also with coaches surely didn't help him. We remark them cause they made him more "special". He had his skill as a "god gift" but he had also to fight and soffer a lot 4 to arrive at the top. Anycase also if he never had any problems what it will change? To become the best soccer player ever of your country and one of the best of the world is difficolt anycase or not?
I did't understand your point him. Surely his injurys didn't help Roby... at the opposite they damaged him badly... He arrived at the top anycase but without them he wuould do it easily and with no soffering.

denco · Sep 28, 2003

What are you talking about that Mancini did not win , he won the scudetto with both Sampdoria and Lazio and the European cup winners cup with both Lazio and Sampdoria as well and he played a huge part in their winning all those cups and titles but he too did not do too well with the National team

Calling players like Pessotto and Padovano is useless because yes they were part of scudetto winning but they were not protagonists

You do not think that Dp is one of the best players to have played for Juve and I certainly don't agree that Baggio is the fourth best player in history but to come now and say the way unless you win European or world footballer of the year then you are not great, would you say Belanov was a great player and mind you Maradona only won world's player of the year once in his career , does that make him lesser of a player than Van Basten?

I am not saying Baggio is not great, cos he is/was but the way you go on about him someone would think that when he was centre of attention of a team they actually won something but sadly thats not the case.
I am not saying you have to won such and such to be considered individually great but to be called the greatest surely when a team is built around your talents, you ought to have taken your team to great heights not just individual awards

Platini great---scudettos and EC cup and European championship
Zz great--- scudettos, la liga, Cl, wc and Euro 2000
Cruyff great ----dutch league and 3 European cups
Beckenbauer great--- 1 wc, 2 European championships, league titles
Pele great--league titles , 3 wcs
Maradona great--2 scudettos, 1 wc
Eusebio great ---European cup and league titles

And all these players played big roles in their teams winning , could be argued they were the key men

Zlatan · Sep 28, 2003

10 pages and this is still going on???

A lot of good opinions tho :thumb: (not that I have read all

)

Zizou · Sep 28, 2003

Padovano was a protagonist during our CL winning season

To answer your question, I obviously have not seen Sivori nor Charles play, but I have seen footage of them, read stats and heard stories from my uncles who followed them during those years. Sivori was simply amazing with the ball, his style of play was amazing, he could do anything with it. Him and Charles were a great attacking duo, probably the best attacking duo we ever had.

Layce Erayce · Sep 29, 2003

in the days when football was an art :touched:

denco · Sep 29, 2003

No Padovano wasn't, scoring 1 or 2 goals does not make you a protagonist, it just meant you contributed and thanks for helping out

Come on Zizou we all know that what our fathers and uncles tell us is usually a gross exaggeration, listening to them, you would think these players never missed a sitter or made a misplaced pass in their career and we all know the older you are the better your reputaion becomes and as for footages, we all know they only show great moments except of cos you saw a full match

I tell you what I watched Brazil vs England 1970 wc and could not believe how incredibly slow the game was and the amount of times Pele kept giving the ball to the opposition but if I was to look at footages of Pele , all I would be shown are fantastic moments

I am not saying these players are not great but in my time of supporting Juve and watching 90 minutes of football, Dp has done more than most in his contribution to our sucess

mate · Sep 29, 2003

What? All the players was part of scudettos and cups from the first to the last, espacially in the latest years in which in Juve there is not a major star and not even 11 major player but the strongest thing is the group.
Anycase team victorys are never an issue to value a single player, cause of course to lead a weak team is more difficolt than to be part of a strong one.
There are players who can be good just if they have a big team who support them, others who do not work in big teams cause they do not stand mental pressure, ecc... To value a single soccer player he has to be seen apart of his team.

Btw the 2 players who are considered the bests Italians at the moment (Totti and Vieri) 4 example won just one scudetto each, while there are somebody (the one who won more is Ferrara I guess) who won 5 or 6 of them...

If you say Baggio won nothing... why you say that players who won less than him won a lot? He won scudettos, Italy cup, Uefa cup, runner up to the WC, Golden Ball, Fifa World player and planty of others personal awards... of course is not so mutch like if he wuolud have stayed always in big teams but the fact that he can manage to be grate also when he does not have the support of the team is one more confirm on how he is grate.
Nothing wrong if you don't see him in the gratest of ever, but you schould also know that it's cause you have your "particolar view" of him, cause actually 4 the rest of the world he is.
Anycase you are so obsessed about Baggio... wondering what he did to you in a previos life

He is one of the gratest soccer player of ever, everybody loves him and praise him, you don't, no problem but why to spend so mutch time trying to convince us that we are blind while you're the one who see the truth? And also if you convince us (impossible) what will you get from it? There are so many peaople to convince (no need to repeat that he was voted the 4° of ever) that you will need 10 lifes to complite your "mission"... wondering if it's worth it

Anycase like Diego Maradona said yesterday in sky TV: every country has a shiniyest star and ther's nothing to discuss about: Italy has Baggio.
And btw we are lucky cause ouer star is also so considers everyweare

Denco you are very lucky not to be Italian

you won't survive here with your Baggio obsession

He is the simble of soccer here and we praise so mutch cause he gave us so mutch... ther's nothing wrong with it

Anycase you will get mad here... you will be so nervous everytime you watch TV or reade a newspaper cause... everybody praise Roby

Your view about Del Piero is also "very personal" cause talking about his contribute to Juve of course is true that he gave a lot, but talking about his value... how can you say he is one of the bests who weared the Juve jersey? Bear in mind that outside from Juve fans nobody consider Del Piero that mutch... you cannot even compare him with international legends like Baggio, Platinì and Zidane, it's "insulting soccer". Soccer isn't just Juve, and actually here we take always fun of Roma fans cause they just see Roma and they are sure that Totti is the best of the worls and will be next "golden ball", but you do exately the same... or even worst cause at list in Roma they are all considering Totti their bests player while in beetwin the bianconeri most will vote 4 Nedved or Buffon.

mate · Sep 29, 2003

In Juve most of the times there are not "a protagonist" but many contributers, Padovano was one of them. We are a group and this is ouer strongest point. A part from Nedved and Buffon every player can be replaced with no problem and I also think that Lippi is working also 4 make the team less Nedved-depended.

Is true what you say about old soccer...everything was more slow, cause the physical preparation was an other thing. It is just a different soccer, you cannot compare maybe number and statistics but anycase Sivori was really good. 4 his times he was surely better than how is Del Piero 4 ouer times but obviously DP will kick Sivori ass if they will hipotetically met beeing the same age but beeing Sivori physically how they used to be at his time.

Anycase "contributei to Juve" is a diffirent thing with value in general... so specify what you are talking about... or we will really think that you actually think that DP is there at the top with the gratest players ever... and if it is... isn't even wort to keep talking about soccer here

Zizou · Sep 29, 2003

Padovano was very important in that season, scoring goals when we were really lacking in attack in many league games and especially one CL match in particular.

denco · Sep 29, 2003

You are always subjective in the way you read my posts , did I not say that Platini , Baggio and Zidane were better than Dp when it comes to contributions they made outside Juventus

I am sorry did you say the rest of the world sees Baggio as the greatest ever?

Ok you say that if you shine in a small club and make them great then you are regarded as a great player, and I totally agree with you as Maradona did with Naploi and the Argentina national team, like Pele did with Santos and like Cruyff did with Ajax as before him they were not on the world stage

When did I say Dp deserves the golden ball? And please dont tell me about soccer because apart from defending, eating drinking and sleeping Baggio, you do little else

Your line if i say Baggio won nothing and then i say players less than him won a lot? What do u mean by that? which players are you talking about?

denco · Sep 29, 2003

You are of course refering to Real madrid at home where he scored the second goal and a certain someone scored the first goal

. If I remember correctly and I do remember correctly we came second in Serie A but won the Cl so how was he a protagonist in a season in which we came second and the 1 Cl goal you are referring to

mate · Sep 29, 2003

I know that and infact I said "remember to say that you are talking about contribute to Juve and notabout value in general".

I think a part from you and few else who cannot be objective nobody can deny he is the best Italian player ever and one of the bests of soccer history. You are surely free to have your ideas but remember that they are very particolar so you cannot say that I overrate him, cause i see him like everybody does and is you who see him "different".

Baggio did both... he shined in big and small teams. He rocked in Juventus and he is now make a small team like Brescia surviving virtually alone. And think also about USA 94 NT... don't you think that actually also if you cannot call Italy a "small team" those team was taken to the final just thanks to Baggio?

No you didn't but you talk about him like also outside his crazy fans somebody schould see what you see in him.

:LOL:
Said from somebody who stear at DP poster instead of seeing football matchs it does not offend me at all...
If you want I sugest some nice DP forum weare you can find some nice girls who just learned to write but actually will schare your opinions perfectly so satify you...
You are the last one how can come here and rate others peaple soccer knowlenge... as you knew what you're talking about... so slow down!

Obviously I was referring that 4 you Mancini won a lot (cause you like him) but Baggio that you hate won nothing also if he won more than Mancini

Martin · Sep 29, 2003

This makes no sense at all. Soccer is a team sport, you can't "see" a player outside his team. Players like Maldini and Totti have only ever played for one club, there is no way one could evaluate their contribution abstracting from their respective clubs, that's just nonsense. Then I can say Maldini is only considered good because he was lucky enough to be born to a Milan player and spend his entire career there, otherwise he would be a Milanese.

But tell me then.. in all his seasons, being the best Italian player in history, why has Baggio won so few titles? Isn't that what distinguishes "champions" from just good players, by titles won? One scudetto and one Coppa Italia, and both at Juve. Why didn't he win anything at Vicenza, Fiorentina, Milan, Bologna, Inter or Brescia??? Not even the Coppa Italia.. That's a pretty pathetic record for the best Italian ever IMO.

mate · Sep 29, 2003

I don't intend it, Alex.
I intend that you cannot rate a player just from the titles or whatever his team won if not Juliano will be better than Totti, 4 example....
Baggio won the scudetto with Juve and Milan. Didn't win with Inter cause when he was there the team was in deep crisi and changed something like 5 coach an year, and all the others teams do not compeate 4 the scudetto. It's so easy... And remaind that he arrived to the final of a WC virtually alone, cause you may not remember but that team sucked and was always saved by some Roby "miracle".
If not Baggio than who's the best Italian?
Didn't you notice that no Italian excluding him is ever named in the bests player ever... so is clear that is not just an Italy thing to consider Baggio the best.
Who will you pick up if you could change the Italian dsoccer simble from Baggio to somebody else? Just curios...

Martin · Sep 29, 2003

How about Ferrara?

I'm just saying to be named the best ever, you should be able to rise to the challenge and take your average club to the top. Maradona did it..

Del Piero: a hero or a choker? (9 Viewers)

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