Del Piero: a hero or a choker? (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter Zlatan
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Great observations and to be honest you hit the nail on the head apart from certain things you have said, first of Maldini is a defender so its normally difficult for a defender to choke on a big game
Second you said Dp plays well when Juve plays well and implies he chokes when we play badly but you did go on to mention that players like Zz shine on the big stage
Do you not think its because France and Real Madrid were playing well too or don't you remember that Zz played in 2 cl finals for us and after bright starts faded as well because the rest of the side played badly too
Then we come to Ronaldo, he literally choked in wc98 and prior to wc2002, Ronaldo hartdly played well in big games, the Barceloan Real madrid matches while he was at Barcelona. the games against Juve, while at Inter and against Milan as well not to mention that final
But now he has become a big game player
2 players that are usually mentioned here as big game players Henry and raul do choke now and then in big games
Henry has now misssed 3 penalties in big games at big moments , against Depor at Highbury 2 seasons ago, against juve when Arsenal needed to win and against Inter at a crucial time when it would have made it 2-1
Also he didnt exactly set the world alight in 2002 wc and hasd hardly scored in a cup final for Arsenal even after so many chances
Raul did very little at wc98, missed a last minute penalty against France in Euro 2000 which would have made it 2-2 and Spain were the better team on the day
So does this mean that these guys too are not heroes for their teams just because they are fallible which of cos is a human trait
Second you said Dp plays well when Juve plays well and implies he chokes when we play badly but you did go on to mention that players like Zz shine on the big stage
Do you not think its because France and Real Madrid were playing well too or don't you remember that Zz played in 2 cl finals for us and after bright starts faded as well because the rest of the side played badly too
Then we come to Ronaldo, he literally choked in wc98 and prior to wc2002, Ronaldo hartdly played well in big games, the Barceloan Real madrid matches while he was at Barcelona. the games against Juve, while at Inter and against Milan as well not to mention that final
But now he has become a big game player
2 players that are usually mentioned here as big game players Henry and raul do choke now and then in big games
Henry has now misssed 3 penalties in big games at big moments , against Depor at Highbury 2 seasons ago, against juve when Arsenal needed to win and against Inter at a crucial time when it would have made it 2-1
Also he didnt exactly set the world alight in 2002 wc and hasd hardly scored in a cup final for Arsenal even after so many chances
Raul did very little at wc98, missed a last minute penalty against France in Euro 2000 which would have made it 2-2 and Spain were the better team on the day
So does this mean that these guys too are not heroes for their teams just because they are fallible which of cos is a human trait
Yes Baggio was already loved when in Juve, cause everybody reconiced he probably was the gratest talent we will always have in Italy, and also cause of his injuryes he had a particolary story who made everybody by his side till his first seria A season. And than of course 4 the emotions he gave everybody with the NT jersey.
You are wrong, I don't think he is the only hero (I wrote it also in the post before)... he is the only one in Italian soccer but I know every country has an own one and I will never disscuss them.
And than there are players like Totti who are kings of one city and you can't discuss them eigher, cause fans will kill you
The point is that in Juve there is not a "one and only" hero at the moment, fans are divided... maybe cause they are all part of a heroic team but nobody of them was always so unsubstitutable.
About Del Piero... well if he's a chocker or not depend on how mutch somebody expect from him. I considered him a big chocker in WC 98 cause he had such a grate season and than in France he sucked so badly! But lasts years I think he's doing his best and disappiont just peaple who expect him to change a match, to win alone, ecc... and those are things he will never do... but at list 4 the numbers of goals I can say he's beeing continuous and consistent.
P.S.:
Anycase please do not start again opening discussions about Baggio in every trade... I sweare that I kinda enjoy them and I also missed them when you weare not in the forums, cause you are the only anti-Baggio here and thare's not mutch to speack when everybody agree... but maybe is better to open your own trade and not to spam them everywheare cause than every trade will go "out of topic" and isn't nice 4 all the users.
You are wrong, I don't think he is the only hero (I wrote it also in the post before)... he is the only one in Italian soccer but I know every country has an own one and I will never disscuss them.
And than there are players like Totti who are kings of one city and you can't discuss them eigher, cause fans will kill you
The point is that in Juve there is not a "one and only" hero at the moment, fans are divided... maybe cause they are all part of a heroic team but nobody of them was always so unsubstitutable.
About Del Piero... well if he's a chocker or not depend on how mutch somebody expect from him. I considered him a big chocker in WC 98 cause he had such a grate season and than in France he sucked so badly! But lasts years I think he's doing his best and disappiont just peaple who expect him to change a match, to win alone, ecc... and those are things he will never do... but at list 4 the numbers of goals I can say he's beeing continuous and consistent.
P.S.:
Anycase please do not start again opening discussions about Baggio in every trade... I sweare that I kinda enjoy them and I also missed them when you weare not in the forums, cause you are the only anti-Baggio here and thare's not mutch to speack when everybody agree... but maybe is better to open your own trade and not to spam them everywheare cause than every trade will go "out of topic" and isn't nice 4 all the users.
I am not anti Baggio at all , i just enjoy winding you and other Baggio fanatics up and if you notice i only mention Baggio when you and others like you are around and arguing with me
There are ppl on here who are anti Baggio , I am not one of them but I do beg to differ Baggio was not universally loved when he was a Juve player, thats absolutely impossible
You cannot tell me when we played Torino or Milan or Inter Roma that the opposition fans used to cheer for him
There are ppl on here who are anti Baggio , I am not one of them but I do beg to differ Baggio was not universally loved when he was a Juve player, thats absolutely impossible
You cannot tell me when we played Torino or Milan or Inter Roma that the opposition fans used to cheer for him
Of course he was and is not universaly loved, he is so loved and his case is unique cause he's loved indipendently of the jersey he wears but there will always be some "anti". A curiosity: the 5 most accessed italian sport website are 1Gazzetta 2Inter 3RobertoBaggio 4Juventus 5Milan... his popolarity is not even in competions with other players but with whole teams... I think his case is amazing... something that will never happen again, so I guess I'm not a "fanatic" is your opinion of Baggio that is wierd not mine...
BTW I do not mean that when he plays vs some teams opposite fans cear 4 him all the match... they maybe put a banner or clap him when he step out the field or if he schows some of his magics but of course during the match they creas 4 their own team.
And yes all this support is from the beginning, when he was in Fiorentina even before he started to play 4 the NT cause for 2 years he was "the most talented guy ever seen but who will never play in serie A" cause he got seriously injured and took 2 years to be back in the field. So they way like he made it to get over all the bad luck he had made nearly everybody by his side. Than after Italia 90 he defenitly became Italy king, and he was loved also when he was in Juventus cause his skill is stronger than "fans rivality".
Anycase check out here:
http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3281
Let's try not to go "out of topic". 4 me is fuunny to speak about Baggio with you cause your view of him is so wierd (and is also wierd that somebody who dislike him speak always about him also when it has nothing to do with the topic), but open your own trade not start a discussion in all the trades around cause maybe not everybody are interested in it.
BTW I do not mean that when he plays vs some teams opposite fans cear 4 him all the match... they maybe put a banner or clap him when he step out the field or if he schows some of his magics but of course during the match they creas 4 their own team.
And yes all this support is from the beginning, when he was in Fiorentina even before he started to play 4 the NT cause for 2 years he was "the most talented guy ever seen but who will never play in serie A" cause he got seriously injured and took 2 years to be back in the field. So they way like he made it to get over all the bad luck he had made nearly everybody by his side. Than after Italia 90 he defenitly became Italy king, and he was loved also when he was in Juventus cause his skill is stronger than "fans rivality".
Anycase check out here:
http://www.juventuz.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3281
Let's try not to go "out of topic". 4 me is fuunny to speak about Baggio with you cause your view of him is so wierd (and is also wierd that somebody who dislike him speak always about him also when it has nothing to do with the topic), but open your own trade not start a discussion in all the trades around cause maybe not everybody are interested in it.
The thread you refered me to is not appropiate as what wer are talking about is not totally off topic and it is soccer related and juventus related
All I know is that Dp is far more important than you give him credit for and it may be controversial to say this but I do believe he has a strong case to say he is the greatest in Juve history as he has scored I think 102 or 104 serieA goals thus far for them and out of that , I know 61 goals of them at least were in scudetto winning season and thats over 60% of his goals and thats mighty impressive by anyones standards and although you continue to remind us that he suck isn the NT he has scored 24 goals for them, imagine whats he would have scored if he had actually fulfilled his Juventus form for the Nt and though you might laugh and say only 1 wc goal, the fact remains that your he is still just 3 behind Baggio and before you start Baggio has scored close to 200 seriA goals but not up to 10, yes thats 10 or just above it actually won his teams the scudetto. I don't know about you but i think its a sad indictment that you can claim a player to be the greatest ever but he has been deemed surplus requirements at the 3 biggets clubs in Italy, Juve , Milan and Inter
As for the websites, Juve.com is shite so I don't blame ppl for not really going there, I bet they are not taking this website into consideration cos surely ppl come to this more while it is universally known that Inter has the best website of all the Italian clubs anyways
All I know is that Dp is far more important than you give him credit for and it may be controversial to say this but I do believe he has a strong case to say he is the greatest in Juve history as he has scored I think 102 or 104 serieA goals thus far for them and out of that , I know 61 goals of them at least were in scudetto winning season and thats over 60% of his goals and thats mighty impressive by anyones standards and although you continue to remind us that he suck isn the NT he has scored 24 goals for them, imagine whats he would have scored if he had actually fulfilled his Juventus form for the Nt and though you might laugh and say only 1 wc goal, the fact remains that your he is still just 3 behind Baggio and before you start Baggio has scored close to 200 seriA goals but not up to 10, yes thats 10 or just above it actually won his teams the scudetto. I don't know about you but i think its a sad indictment that you can claim a player to be the greatest ever but he has been deemed surplus requirements at the 3 biggets clubs in Italy, Juve , Milan and Inter
As for the websites, Juve.com is shite so I don't blame ppl for not really going there, I bet they are not taking this website into consideration cos surely ppl come to this more while it is universally known that Inter has the best website of all the Italian clubs anyways
Del Piero the best player of Juve history? Oh my god your case is worst of what I was thinking
He is definitly a player who made the bianconeri history cause he spended there 10 years and cause a part from 2 years he always gave his contribute, but he is far to be the best. IMO he is good but is all the group who did the difference in those years, and if there somebody that cannot be substituted isn't certainly him... you give him way too mutch importance. But isn't my problem, I know you are a crazy Delpierino and I don't want to make you change idea but you also has to know that you cannot make change idea to me and to all the peaple that schowed in this trade to think the same... give up... you're not Del Piero "image manager" isn't you job to make everybody become his fans.As 4 the NT... I hope you weare just joking cause I guess neighter a blind person can think that Italy NT fans gave importance to unuseful goals if somebody sucked in all the important occasions... You perfectly know that if Del Piero will ever be remembered in azzurri's history it will never be 4 a deviated freekick vs Azerbajan, a penalty on 4-0 vs Wales or a goal in a friendschip... but 4 France 98 and Euro 2000. I guess you are not a fan of Italy and you just care of Del Piero scoring... so 4 you is different but I bet isn't difficolt to understand that 4 who is Italian isn't the same...
P.S.: I know Juve official site sucks and btw Roby official site sucks too, he has so many beautiful fan site mutch better than that. (Both of them are just good 4 "official and reliable news".) The fact that Baggio web sites has more accesses of the teams sites was just an example... and btw unesful... cause also if you hate the fact I guess you cannot deny that Baggio is loved and popolar everyweare... You are a bit obsessed by him, but 4 nearly the rest of the world he is one of the best player ever and with no dubt the best in Italy.
About the "out of topic": 4 me isn't a problem... but I remember how many topics you transformed on Baggio discussion so I guess is more easy if you open you own "antiBaggio" trade instead on spamming everything in every trade cause probably many peaple do not care of it...
It do not cost nothing to you... next time you cannot resist to talk about "you favorite argument" just do it in a new topic... cause it make no sense to transform so many trades in the same discussion IMO.
LAC the weather is "out of topic" too
This is going to fit better in "the hang out"... anycase here in Italy is still summer, but the dadly hot went away so I will say that it's amazing 
I didn't want to join this discussion since as always these debate go on forever. But Denco, you say DP is the best Juve player ever? He might make a top 20 list but he would not be in the top 5 for sure.
Mate has a point about the NT. In Italy DP is not loved as much as he is loved out of Italy. Even Juve italian fans don't appreciate him as much as foreign people. I sitll remember that till two years ago he would be whistled off the pitch after every match (and no it wasn't the opposition). Don't forget that in the 99/00 or 00/01 season he had said that he might be sold and no one of the fans really staged any protest back then. I remember there was the possibility of a Sheva-DP swap and I think most Juve fans wouldn't have minded that at all.
He might make a top 20 list but he would not be in the top 5 for sure.Mate has a point about the NT. In Italy DP is not loved as much as he is loved out of Italy. Even Juve italian fans don't appreciate him as much as foreign people. I sitll remember that till two years ago he would be whistled off the pitch after every match (and no it wasn't the opposition). Don't forget that in the 99/00 or 00/01 season he had said that he might be sold and no one of the fans really staged any protest back then. I remember there was the possibility of a Sheva-DP swap and I think most Juve fans wouldn't have minded that at all.
I tottally disagree wit everyone who calls Del Piero a choker. I agree that DP doesnt have always plays good like Nedved and Buffon. But who was the Juve's top scorer last year in the Calcio and CL. DP deserves to be captain, who else can motivate the team to win, (Nedved/Thuram/Buffon) c'mon get real. They r all good in the matches but I think y'all being harsh on Alex.
Hey Denco!
Thats a very isnightful post. But i must say i think ur pushing it when u say Dp is the best player in Juve's history. Thats gotta be a lil far fetched. Surely, there are a few above him. Its like i said, nobody is denying DP's talents. But he lacks the big match temperament, and that hurts his claim to be one of Italy and Juve's all time greats. He's spectacular all season long in the Juve jersey and even in some international qualifiers. But whats the point, when we come to the climax of the CL or of a Euro or Wc. He's nowhere to be seen, his game just drops and leads to some really forgettable performances from a player of his calibre. Surely, i dont want this to go in to another Baggio V Dp battle, but Dp has left a lot to be desired on more than one occasion. On the other hand, you say Baggio was deemed surplus at three of Italy's biggest clubs. I think we all know that was merely because of disagreements with the men who ran those clubs. Dp maybe only 3 short of Baggio's tally, but how many of those actually have brought Italy to a final or close to it? Look at Baggio in Italia '90. USA 94 (single handedly took italy to the final) and even France 98, with some reall quality assits. Its just that Baggio has had fallouts with authority that has led to his exclusion on most occasions and those have been followed by huge fan protests whether for Italy or ne club team . Dp on the other hand should consider himself lucky, because if he ever had a fallout with a coach or ne authority, he would be sold without ne consideration. Or protests. Please dont get me wrong. Every Juve fan here appreciates what DP has done for his teams. Infact there have been times where i feel Dp has even been grossly underrated but by calling him our best ever is jumping the gun.
Yes calling Dp the best Juve player ever is crazy.
Platinì, Baggio and Zidane 4 example are internationals legends who can conpete on beeing in the top players of soccer history... how can Del Piero even think to be compared to them?
Also leaving apart the history and talking about the present 4 example I think that the ouers best players are Nedved and Buffon not Del Piero.
DelPiero was and is very important 4 Juventus but there was not a moment in which he was the most the shiny or the leader.
But that just when you talk about Juventus, when you talk about the NT the question is differen, even a blind DP fan can deny he was a disgrace in azzurri.
I think when he will quit playing he will remain a Juve icon and maybe still work in Juve like Bettega. But he will never find a space into the biggest Italin legends, like 4 example also 4 Bettega is.
Platinì, Baggio and Zidane 4 example are internationals legends who can conpete on beeing in the top players of soccer history... how can Del Piero even think to be compared to them?
Also leaving apart the history and talking about the present 4 example I think that the ouers best players are Nedved and Buffon not Del Piero.
DelPiero was and is very important 4 Juventus but there was not a moment in which he was the most the shiny or the leader.
But that just when you talk about Juventus, when you talk about the NT the question is differen, even a blind DP fan can deny he was a disgrace in azzurri.
I think when he will quit playing he will remain a Juve icon and maybe still work in Juve like Bettega. But he will never find a space into the biggest Italin legends, like 4 example also 4 Bettega is.
It was reported also in Italian medias I think it was one of the stupid Gazzetta pool who they do trought mobile phones messages.
Well... I'm not a girl but is clear that Del Piero isn't the 3° uglyiest player after Recoba and Gattuso... The point is also the same... he is hated, that's why he was so voted in that pool.
Just 4 the curiosity... the most attractive resulted to be Nesta, are you agree girls?
I think it was one of the stupid Gazzetta pool who they do trought mobile phones messages.Well... I'm not a girl but is clear that Del Piero isn't the 3° uglyiest player after Recoba and Gattuso... The point is also the same... he is hated, that's why he was so voted in that pool.
Just 4 the curiosity... the most attractive resulted to be Nesta, are you agree girls?
mate ur signature quote is SO made up to begin with :LOL:
Calling Del Piero a 'disgrace' for the National Team is a sin that you should be accounted for. Missing the chance in Euro2000 was a disgrace, but Vieri missed a similar chance in the more recent World Cup 2002 against Korea and no one is calling for his neck?! People tend to have selective memories nowadays. Del Piero was Italy's topscorer for the World Cup qualifiers and is doing well in the Euro qualifiers.
Just stay away for him and respect the king like normal people do ..
Calling Del Piero a 'disgrace' for the National Team is a sin that you should be accounted for. Missing the chance in Euro2000 was a disgrace, but Vieri missed a similar chance in the more recent World Cup 2002 against Korea and no one is calling for his neck?! People tend to have selective memories nowadays. Del Piero was Italy's topscorer for the World Cup qualifiers and is doing well in the Euro qualifiers.
Just stay away for him and respect the king like normal people do ..
Yep, at soon as I heard Diego say that at the Golden Foot cerimony, I changed my Rivera quote, this one is better :thumb:
About the NT question I'm sorry but everybody eccept DP fans are agree... and btw Italian DP fans also agree with that, surely giving the foult to the coachs who played him at the wrong moments and not to him(as I also do cause I'm sure he didn't suck in pourpose), but they do.
About Vieri... yes of course he missed an easy chance and at the moment I wanted to kill him but (also if I do not like the guy) we have to say that without his goals we wuould have lost all the matchs ot 2002 WC, and we wuould not even been arrived to play that match vs Korea. While DP 4 example in France 98 sucked from the first minute he played to the last, and didn't even deserve to play those match vs France nor in WC 98 nor in EURO 2000... that's the big difference... we starded "wanted to kill him" already when we saw him in the starting 11 cause... why the hell he was there, if he sucked so mutch before? Still one of the "big mistery" in Italian soccer. Cannot comapre with Vieri who actually did just a mistake, and this can happen to everybody... but also did important things and definitly deserved to wear that azzurri jersey.
4 somebody who acually is Italian is impossible not to consider DP a disgrace 4 azzurri. 4 you as 4 Denco and all the not Italian DP fans is different cause you may be happy if he scores in a friendly and you may don't care about what happen to the Italian NT in the big competions but is normal that 4 us is different... btw "normal peaople" think like this
About the NT question I'm sorry but everybody eccept DP fans are agree... and btw Italian DP fans also agree with that, surely giving the foult to the coachs who played him at the wrong moments and not to him(as I also do cause I'm sure he didn't suck in pourpose), but they do.
About Vieri... yes of course he missed an easy chance and at the moment I wanted to kill him but (also if I do not like the guy) we have to say that without his goals we wuould have lost all the matchs ot 2002 WC, and we wuould not even been arrived to play that match vs Korea. While DP 4 example in France 98 sucked from the first minute he played to the last, and didn't even deserve to play those match vs France nor in WC 98 nor in EURO 2000... that's the big difference... we starded "wanted to kill him" already when we saw him in the starting 11 cause... why the hell he was there, if he sucked so mutch before? Still one of the "big mistery" in Italian soccer. Cannot comapre with Vieri who actually did just a mistake, and this can happen to everybody... but also did important things and definitly deserved to wear that azzurri jersey.
4 somebody who acually is Italian is impossible not to consider DP a disgrace 4 azzurri. 4 you as 4 Denco and all the not Italian DP fans is different cause you may be happy if he scores in a friendly and you may don't care about what happen to the Italian NT in the big competions but is normal that 4 us is different... btw "normal peaople" think like this
What has saying he is one of the best if not the best player to have played for Juventus got to do with the NT?
I was refering to him as a Juventus player not Italy player as I am not silly enuff to say he has been top quality for the NT
Zizou says top 20 but not top 5, pray tell tell me the 4 ahead of him and all that being whistled and booed after every game in 2001 is sheer bull, there is only 1 match in particular against Bologna where there was ever hulabaloo against his being booed even of he deserved to be booed the season before that as he was bad
Zidane, a player i absolutely adore was a passenger most of the time in the league, save his last season at Juve, was very good in Cl matches but was not so good in the league matches and he also heard boos by Juve fans
Platini retired as soon as the going got tough
I dont remember anyone protesting or breaking down anything when Baggio was sold to Milan so whay are we now talking about that there won't have been protests if Dp was sold
Yes the age old protests by Baggio supporters that he was misunderstood by his coaches who did not understand his genius and we are talking about Trapatoni with how many league title, Capello with how many scudettos and Cl medals and Sacchi who won how many European cups and 1 scudettos
No we should all believe Mazzone that great coach who won so many scudettos in his career
The fact is while Baggio was flag bearer we won zilch and its seems funny to me that both sets of fans dont realise that both players are great in their own way and limited in their almost similar ways
The big difference is that Baggio is far superior mentally but they are both good but not good enough to build your team around to win the big one like the world cup and Champios league
But as far Juve goes I would always put Dp ahead of Baggio simple because Dp is the better team player and gives more over a season than Baggio
Mate i hope your sig. does not mean that Maradona wants to put Baggio up his nose
I was refering to him as a Juventus player not Italy player as I am not silly enuff to say he has been top quality for the NT
Zizou says top 20 but not top 5, pray tell tell me the 4 ahead of him and all that being whistled and booed after every game in 2001 is sheer bull, there is only 1 match in particular against Bologna where there was ever hulabaloo against his being booed even of he deserved to be booed the season before that as he was bad
Zidane, a player i absolutely adore was a passenger most of the time in the league, save his last season at Juve, was very good in Cl matches but was not so good in the league matches and he also heard boos by Juve fans
Platini retired as soon as the going got tough
I dont remember anyone protesting or breaking down anything when Baggio was sold to Milan so whay are we now talking about that there won't have been protests if Dp was sold
Yes the age old protests by Baggio supporters that he was misunderstood by his coaches who did not understand his genius and we are talking about Trapatoni with how many league title, Capello with how many scudettos and Cl medals and Sacchi who won how many European cups and 1 scudettos
No we should all believe Mazzone that great coach who won so many scudettos in his career
The fact is while Baggio was flag bearer we won zilch and its seems funny to me that both sets of fans dont realise that both players are great in their own way and limited in their almost similar ways
The big difference is that Baggio is far superior mentally but they are both good but not good enough to build your team around to win the big one like the world cup and Champios league
But as far Juve goes I would always put Dp ahead of Baggio simple because Dp is the better team player and gives more over a season than Baggio
Mate i hope your sig. does not mean that Maradona wants to put Baggio up his nose
:sleepy: