i actually think camoranisi is a really good player, yes at time hes inconsistent but i mean he proved to be really important vs lecce
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This Team Needs Something Badly (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Desmond
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first of all,have you considered that it might be entirely possible to play at a style similar to inter or roma and lead the table by six?
our offensive style is unfocused and the team plays without a clear definition of attack,be it from the centre or the flanks or whatever.the team is as dedicated in defense as we have always been under lippi.i have no problems with the emphasis being on defense-as long as the team finds it's direction in attack first.
if you read my first post again,you might probably understand how i feel misunderstood right now.like i said,we have rode on a huge wave of luck so far this season and after i've watched a good number of games played by our rivals,i am entirely convinced that judging by the quality of their offensive play they deserve to have scored 25 goals 10 games-we don't.
statistics,at least in this case,only serve to flatter and decieve.
i'd rather we win 1-0 than 5-4.i've got no problems with the team being astute in defence and effective in attack,winning regularly with scorelines of one or two-nil.it's just that,with the way we're playing now,we'll be looking at alot more draws and maybe even losses.this team doesn't stand a chance against a good defence.
again,statistics statistics.
FLAIR?POTENCY?
i think you forgot something:LUCK
we control the pace of games and have alot of possession in every game but fail to translate them into chances.the finishing has been good so far,but we can't rely on del piero and zlatan to score regularly unless we create a large number of chances a game,as many other good teams do.trezeguet,as you probably know,can't do squat without service either.
i'm sorry but i've never heard of that phrase,only "the best defense is a good offence."(looked it up in an idiom dictionary too)
we are not playing worse than inter or milan-we are playing better football overall,flair or no flair.but dare you bet against them getting back to form,especially milan?when they do,juve will find it very difficult to contain them even with a six point advantage.that is,unless we improve on offense.a good defense may be paramount to a winning season and represent a major share of our game,but goals are what win you games,not clean sheets.
0-0....
or 6-5?
our offensive style is unfocused and the team plays without a clear definition of attack,be it from the centre or the flanks or whatever.the team is as dedicated in defense as we have always been under lippi.i have no problems with the emphasis being on defense-as long as the team finds it's direction in attack first.
if you read my first post again,you might probably understand how i feel misunderstood right now.like i said,we have rode on a huge wave of luck so far this season and after i've watched a good number of games played by our rivals,i am entirely convinced that judging by the quality of their offensive play they deserve to have scored 25 goals 10 games-we don't.
statistics,at least in this case,only serve to flatter and decieve.
i'd rather we win 1-0 than 5-4.i've got no problems with the team being astute in defence and effective in attack,winning regularly with scorelines of one or two-nil.it's just that,with the way we're playing now,we'll be looking at alot more draws and maybe even losses.this team doesn't stand a chance against a good defence.
again,statistics statistics.
FLAIR?POTENCY?
i think you forgot something:LUCK
we control the pace of games and have alot of possession in every game but fail to translate them into chances.the finishing has been good so far,but we can't rely on del piero and zlatan to score regularly unless we create a large number of chances a game,as many other good teams do.trezeguet,as you probably know,can't do squat without service either.
i'm sorry but i've never heard of that phrase,only "the best defense is a good offence."(looked it up in an idiom dictionary too)
we are not playing worse than inter or milan-we are playing better football overall,flair or no flair.but dare you bet against them getting back to form,especially milan?when they do,juve will find it very difficult to contain them even with a six point advantage.that is,unless we improve on offense.a good defense may be paramount to a winning season and represent a major share of our game,but goals are what win you games,not clean sheets.
0-0....
or 6-5?
You've also got a good point.
But as you've said, if we aren't as inspiring in attack as the others, I might as well defend and maintain the equality in scoring opportunities.
Our not so inspired attack + Our mean defense = Neutralizing devastating offenses & matching not so good defenses.
I hope you get what I'm trying to say.
With this, we can have a better chance of handling the game than to try and play like other teams do. Which is to attack, and leave our defense open.
I think that this squad is playing according to its characteristics. Not unless we have players such as Totti, Adriano, or Sheva, then perhaps we can play a much attacking football.
And for LUCK, I am grateful that it has sided with us for a few games already this season. But hey, all champions need luck. It helps build confidence, to perhaps, lead to a better and inspired football from the lads.
I just hope our run continues to build up, so we can handle other teams when the time comes.
I honestly think that our team can do so much better. We are not yet 100%
But as you've said, if we aren't as inspiring in attack as the others, I might as well defend and maintain the equality in scoring opportunities.
Our not so inspired attack + Our mean defense = Neutralizing devastating offenses & matching not so good defenses.
I hope you get what I'm trying to say.
With this, we can have a better chance of handling the game than to try and play like other teams do. Which is to attack, and leave our defense open.
I think that this squad is playing according to its characteristics. Not unless we have players such as Totti, Adriano, or Sheva, then perhaps we can play a much attacking football.
And for LUCK, I am grateful that it has sided with us for a few games already this season. But hey, all champions need luck. It helps build confidence, to perhaps, lead to a better and inspired football from the lads.
I just hope our run continues to build up, so we can handle other teams when the time comes.
I honestly think that our team can do so much better. We are not yet 100%
Regarding Desmond's observation, its been discussed before - the Juve for the past few seasons (or more specifically, after DP's crippling injury in 99') has no clue in building a coherent attack for any sustained periods.
After 3 coaches in 5 years, its basically still the same thing. Ancelotti squeezes the life out of the opposition (and unfortunately, the interest of the watching public as well) with a strong back 4, lots of useless possession, focussing 80% of the attack via ZZ and precious little else. Lippi took over and extracted the maximum of what remained of the 96-98' stalwarts he steered to great successes before plus one instrumental difference - Nedved. Capello's work so far has been a mix between both his predecessors - an iron-clad defence, giving nothing away in defensive midfield and direct, stunningly efficient attacking contribution from individuals. That's the keyword - individuals.
I disagree that we lack people like Shevchenko, Totti etc. Man-for-man in attack, Juventus has nothing to envy from any Serie A side. Nedved, DP, Trez and Zlatan of late are all matchwinners in their own right. However, I do not see any chemistry, any of them improving each other's play to the real level expected of a 'partnership' The defence is the only area which has any semblence of this. In attack, they do their own stuff and do it damn well too but it ends right there. Unfortunately, to the detriment of entertainment, the system still works so why change?
I disagree as well that attractive football has to come at the expense of what Roma is showing. This team is capable of much more. For some obscure reason, we haven't seen the fulfilment of its potential. Maybe the solution lies in an elusive individual (the very cause of the problem) as well but that would be going down the route of Inter ...
After 3 coaches in 5 years, its basically still the same thing. Ancelotti squeezes the life out of the opposition (and unfortunately, the interest of the watching public as well) with a strong back 4, lots of useless possession, focussing 80% of the attack via ZZ and precious little else. Lippi took over and extracted the maximum of what remained of the 96-98' stalwarts he steered to great successes before plus one instrumental difference - Nedved. Capello's work so far has been a mix between both his predecessors - an iron-clad defence, giving nothing away in defensive midfield and direct, stunningly efficient attacking contribution from individuals. That's the keyword - individuals.
I disagree that we lack people like Shevchenko, Totti etc. Man-for-man in attack, Juventus has nothing to envy from any Serie A side. Nedved, DP, Trez and Zlatan of late are all matchwinners in their own right. However, I do not see any chemistry, any of them improving each other's play to the real level expected of a 'partnership' The defence is the only area which has any semblence of this. In attack, they do their own stuff and do it damn well too but it ends right there. Unfortunately, to the detriment of entertainment, the system still works so why change?
I disagree as well that attractive football has to come at the expense of what Roma is showing. This team is capable of much more. For some obscure reason, we haven't seen the fulfilment of its potential. Maybe the solution lies in an elusive individual (the very cause of the problem) as well but that would be going down the route of Inter ...
Comes to think about it, Juve current style of play may incoporrate a bit of mind game as well. This can be seen on why Capello always praise on how strong the mentality of Juve players, and how dedicated they are in achieving the best.
The key point of current juve team are the defense, this can be proven by the statistic once again, and I think the whole realized this as well. The way i see it Capello is really putting a lot stress on it, in order to make the opponent becomes frustrated, and confused on how to break it down. This will create mistakes at the opponents midfields, or defense because they are concentrating too much on attacking.
You can say the goal against Bayern was luck, well... both of them =O. But seriously Bayern defense was quite bad nearing the end of the game. The marking was poor, and nedved + alex was roaming free without anyone marking them. Juve manage to capitalize on the chance, and really give the opponent a hard punch, and that is the ideal scenario. The worst condition is that we ended up in a draw.
Well to play this kind of game by forcing the opponent making mistakes are very, very dangerous. This can be proven on how we got beaten by Reggina. Once the opponents are scoring more goals, we are the ones who need to catch up, but unfortunately our key strength is not in attacking. From this, I find it very uneasy for me as a Juve fan (though we are succesful in CL and Serie A) to go into a match without being nervous, scared, or should i say lack of confidence.
But what can I say, once a bianconeri always a bianconeri, so I am currently content with Juve style so far. Rejuvenation of defense have been achieved, clearly we are better in using the wing backs and the size of the pitch, but it won't kill if we can attack more cohesively as well.
But overall, we are still much better than chelsea which is using almost the same style as us, (we score more goals, furthermore we are in serie A) defense first. =)
The key point of current juve team are the defense, this can be proven by the statistic once again, and I think the whole realized this as well. The way i see it Capello is really putting a lot stress on it, in order to make the opponent becomes frustrated, and confused on how to break it down. This will create mistakes at the opponents midfields, or defense because they are concentrating too much on attacking.
You can say the goal against Bayern was luck, well... both of them =O. But seriously Bayern defense was quite bad nearing the end of the game. The marking was poor, and nedved + alex was roaming free without anyone marking them. Juve manage to capitalize on the chance, and really give the opponent a hard punch, and that is the ideal scenario. The worst condition is that we ended up in a draw.
Well to play this kind of game by forcing the opponent making mistakes are very, very dangerous. This can be proven on how we got beaten by Reggina. Once the opponents are scoring more goals, we are the ones who need to catch up, but unfortunately our key strength is not in attacking. From this, I find it very uneasy for me as a Juve fan (though we are succesful in CL and Serie A) to go into a match without being nervous, scared, or should i say lack of confidence.
But what can I say, once a bianconeri always a bianconeri, so I am currently content with Juve style so far. Rejuvenation of defense have been achieved, clearly we are better in using the wing backs and the size of the pitch, but it won't kill if we can attack more cohesively as well.
But overall, we are still much better than chelsea which is using almost the same style as us, (we score more goals, furthermore we are in serie A) defense first. =)
Des, sorry but IMO your keep hitting the bell in the wrong church:
1."Our offensive style is unfocused and no definition in attack"....can you mention a single official game we hadnt been able to score??
2- "judging from the quality of their offensive play they deserve to had scored 25 goal-10 games.we dont"....thats a respectable but very subjective opinion, as cannot be confirmed by the facts, on the contrary, facts shows the opposite.
3 You think we forgot something: LUCK...c`mon...if we win, we sucks but are lucky, if we loose, we just sucks. Luck is a variable out of control but generally speaking, keeps the same side of the eficiency.
4- 0-0...or 6-5 ?....No, the right choice is 1-0, 2-0, 3-0
But more important, is the fact that Juve always has been like this. With some minor changes, and even with ZZ, or in the times of Platini, a very strong defensive and a conservative style of game that has been historical in our team and has give us many success and will be kept because, in the bottom, it is just a expession of the Juventus Society Philosophy and the best exponent of the scuola italiana di calcio...
I has been able to celebrate twelve scudettos with this style of play and im shure i will celebrate some more....
1."Our offensive style is unfocused and no definition in attack"....can you mention a single official game we hadnt been able to score??
2- "judging from the quality of their offensive play they deserve to had scored 25 goal-10 games.we dont"....thats a respectable but very subjective opinion, as cannot be confirmed by the facts, on the contrary, facts shows the opposite.
3 You think we forgot something: LUCK...c`mon...if we win, we sucks but are lucky, if we loose, we just sucks. Luck is a variable out of control but generally speaking, keeps the same side of the eficiency.
4- 0-0...or 6-5 ?....No, the right choice is 1-0, 2-0, 3-0
But more important, is the fact that Juve always has been like this. With some minor changes, and even with ZZ, or in the times of Platini, a very strong defensive and a conservative style of game that has been historical in our team and has give us many success and will be kept because, in the bottom, it is just a expession of the Juventus Society Philosophy and the best exponent of the scuola italiana di calcio...
I has been able to celebrate twelve scudettos with this style of play and im shure i will celebrate some more....
the reason why we have managed to score in so many of our matches (okay,all our matches) is that we have a huge amount of possession in matches against mediocre opposition and alot of luck against sides like ajax and bayern.the possession rarely translates into a proportionate amount of chances and focal point of the attack is blurry at best.we cannot clearly see what capello is trying to do with the attackers and in games where we do not have quite as much of the ball we will need an incredible finisher to win matches.
like i said,the statistics are decieving.
i don't mind a defensive minded team at all.however with all that defending,especially against big teams,we need to be all the more proficient in attack.we don't win on pure luck,in fact we have deserved to win most of our games this season.i'm telling you,in time we will see fewer chances being put away and fewer 3-0 scorelines.
like i said,the statistics are decieving.
3 You think we forgot something: LUCK...c`mon...if we win, we sucks but are lucky, if we loose, we just sucks. Luck is a variable out of control but generally speaking, keeps the same side of the eficiency.
4- 0-0...or 6-5 ?....No, the right choice is 1-0, 2-0, 3-0
But more important, is the fact that Juve always has been like this. With some minor changes, and even with ZZ, or in the times of Platini, a very strong defensive and a conservative style of game that has been historical in our team and has give us many success and will be kept because, in the bottom, it is just a expession of the Juventus Society Philosophy and the best exponent of the scuola italiana di calcio...
I has been able to celebrate twelve scudettos with this style of play and im shure i will celebrate some more....
4- 0-0...or 6-5 ?....No, the right choice is 1-0, 2-0, 3-0
But more important, is the fact that Juve always has been like this. With some minor changes, and even with ZZ, or in the times of Platini, a very strong defensive and a conservative style of game that has been historical in our team and has give us many success and will be kept because, in the bottom, it is just a expession of the Juventus Society Philosophy and the best exponent of the scuola italiana di calcio...
I has been able to celebrate twelve scudettos with this style of play and im shure i will celebrate some more....
whats wrong with basing your opinion on statistic?...i think its a good base for an opinion.... i would be worried if we scored half the goals of anybody else like any defensive side ussually do, but you cant right statistics off when right now we are leading the pack as far as the scudetto is concern. Something must been going right dont you think?
would you still stand by our attack is crap even if the statistic says we score the most at the end of the season?
in most cases yes.in the instances of man utd, inter, barcelona, lecce, chelsea and many others the statistics do serve as a good base for an opinion.but in our case it has led to alot of misconception about this team and i cringe when i hear other fans praise juve's prowess in attack because i know we can't keep this up.
something is definitely going right-the defence.i have never questioned that.we are defending superbly and deserve top spot.
if we manage to score the most at the end of the season by attacking like this it would be a miracle.
you wanna talk statistics so bad?it's been two 1-0 games running now,more to come i'm sure.
something is definitely going right-the defence.i have never questioned that.we are defending superbly and deserve top spot.
if we manage to score the most at the end of the season by attacking like this it would be a miracle.
you wanna talk statistics so bad?it's been two 1-0 games running now,more to come i'm sure.
i'm sure we can't keep this up..
because it can only GET BETTER.
take note that our captain is still being plagued by injuries, he is still not 100% fit.
plus add to the equation what trezeguet can contribute when he gets back from the rehabilitation of his shoulder.
zlatan has a galaxy of room for improvement, given his massive potential. he's already impressive right now, i wonder how much better he can get in the future.
and, zalayeta can always be counted on.
what more if our midfielders start scoring in regularity.
imagine if nedved could score as much as our strikers.
plus, if camo and emerson could score on occassions.
that would flood us with goals.
i think our attack is doing pretty impressive already.
because it can only GET BETTER.
take note that our captain is still being plagued by injuries, he is still not 100% fit.
plus add to the equation what trezeguet can contribute when he gets back from the rehabilitation of his shoulder.
zlatan has a galaxy of room for improvement, given his massive potential. he's already impressive right now, i wonder how much better he can get in the future.
and, zalayeta can always be counted on.
what more if our midfielders start scoring in regularity.
imagine if nedved could score as much as our strikers.
plus, if camo and emerson could score on occassions.
that would flood us with goals.
i think our attack is doing pretty impressive already.
just what I wanted to say
My only point to add is: Everybody should notice that Capello changed the half team from last year+ he lost Trezequet, so for me it is the top of maximalism to cry about our not so stylish play. He changed half of the team but we only lost one game so far this season (When he arrived to Rome, he asked for a full year to build the team became champion next season). I think to play spectacular football is at the end of the to-do list.
To play with a playmaker is a question of choice, may its a bit speculative, but I think Capello got enough of one-man team in Rome, and he really enjoys to build a balanced unit, like his unbeaten AC Milan was (Savicevic played in playmakers role, but he was far from being the main brain everybody has to follow, like Zizou or Ronaldinho)
Look at the new Juve Capello started to build quietly, without disturbing the teams balance: Zlatan, Oliveira, Kapo, Blasi, Appiah (I admit I never thought I ever considere him as a possibly useful player)
as now I see: the future is bright
My only point to add is: Everybody should notice that Capello changed the half team from last year+ he lost Trezequet, so for me it is the top of maximalism to cry about our not so stylish play. He changed half of the team but we only lost one game so far this season (When he arrived to Rome, he asked for a full year to build the team became champion next season). I think to play spectacular football is at the end of the to-do list.
To play with a playmaker is a question of choice, may its a bit speculative, but I think Capello got enough of one-man team in Rome, and he really enjoys to build a balanced unit, like his unbeaten AC Milan was (Savicevic played in playmakers role, but he was far from being the main brain everybody has to follow, like Zizou or Ronaldinho)
Look at the new Juve Capello started to build quietly, without disturbing the teams balance: Zlatan, Oliveira, Kapo, Blasi, Appiah (I admit I never thought I ever considere him as a possibly useful player)
as now I see: the future is bright
u know Desmond....when u r taking about our Juve....i feel that u hate them a lot.....one attack our team......i know u don't mean it as u want to explain an idea but plz stay calm
2nd ...our team doing very well regarding what do we have from players.....we are team work rather than else thing.....
last don't compare us to Barca....which this team just..just this year start to play well ....and why ...Desmond ...Barca u can't talk about this team among last few years...they are just shity team and now....bought the right players and then start fly.....
more over Desmond....look how Manunited...alot of top players...with Arsenal ...and all not convincing right now.....even Real ....they have every thing but big hole in this team that sinks them....
Desmond our team with the players right now is simply Great ...when we have Superplayers like Ronaldinho start to talk not other wise.....
plz talk about team calmly....because all of us simply we love this sweet old laddy ver very much.......
2nd ...our team doing very well regarding what do we have from players.....we are team work rather than else thing.....
last don't compare us to Barca....which this team just..just this year start to play well ....and why ...Desmond ...Barca u can't talk about this team among last few years...they are just shity team and now....bought the right players and then start fly.....
more over Desmond....look how Manunited...alot of top players...with Arsenal ...and all not convincing right now.....even Real ....they have every thing but big hole in this team that sinks them....
Desmond our team with the players right now is simply Great ...when we have Superplayers like Ronaldinho start to talk not other wise.....
plz talk about team calmly....because all of us simply we love this sweet old laddy ver very much.......
i wasnt talking about the defense. we are leading the pack in scoring goals as far as the scudetto is concerned ( since Lecce is not a scudetto challenger )... eventhough our defence is superb class, to be top 2 in goals score also suggest we are doing right in attack... as Inter, Milan and Roma shows, keeping oppossing defenders on their toes isnt the only effective way to score goals.
man we are only a few goals short of Lecce to be most scoring team in the league.. we scored in every match this season ...not very far away from a miracle dont you think?... i am absolutely confident we will at least in the top 3 in goals scored in Serie A by the end of the season ..
in my opinion, the only defense that would give us problem is AC Milan. even then its they who should afraid more on our defense than us on theirs.
1-0 games works just fine for we. come again when we have a bunch of 0-0s
man we are only a few goals short of Lecce to be most scoring team in the league.. we scored in every match this season ...not very far away from a miracle dont you think?... i am absolutely confident we will at least in the top 3 in goals scored in Serie A by the end of the season ..
in my opinion, the only defense that would give us problem is AC Milan. even then its they who should afraid more on our defense than us on theirs.
1-0 games works just fine for we. come again when we have a bunch of 0-0s
i ve done a lot of skim reading mind you but so far i agree with Desmond.
I wont repeat argument but just say that against Reginna we were unlucky and we lost. They had a player less but we never looked like scoring. For me such a situation is disturbing.
Yes we have a great defence and that is precisely the reason why we should be more attacking not more defensive. Keep the midfield and the defence as it is except Olivera or Kapo need to be slotted in. Perhaps Emo, Camo, Neddy and Oli.
The only problem up front is lack of support.
I wont repeat argument but just say that against Reginna we were unlucky and we lost. They had a player less but we never looked like scoring. For me such a situation is disturbing.
Yes we have a great defence and that is precisely the reason why we should be more attacking not more defensive. Keep the midfield and the defence as it is except Olivera or Kapo need to be slotted in. Perhaps Emo, Camo, Neddy and Oli.
The only problem up front is lack of support.
this team would die without possession.we don't attack effectively.against a team which can keep possession better or as well as us we will surely suffer.even against a team who has less of the ball juve will have problems because others are able to create more with less while we play the ball around aimlessly and slowly.
this team wastes time passing the ball around and works it around meaninglessly.slow build-up has to be constructive and determined,capello has failed to imbue this sense of urgency in the players.don't get me wrong,urgency doesn't equate speed,but a killer attitude and a concentrated focal point in attack.
only Milan's defence will give us problems?i'm afraid you've forgotten the defensive prowess of serie a.when players like kaka,adriano and totti can get shut down by the likes of bologna and cagliari i shudder to contemplate another injury or two to this attack which is already inferior to that of milan and inter.
this team wastes time passing the ball around and works it around meaninglessly.slow build-up has to be constructive and determined,capello has failed to imbue this sense of urgency in the players.don't get me wrong,urgency doesn't equate speed,but a killer attitude and a concentrated focal point in attack.
only Milan's defence will give us problems?i'm afraid you've forgotten the defensive prowess of serie a.when players like kaka,adriano and totti can get shut down by the likes of bologna and cagliari i shudder to contemplate another injury or two to this attack which is already inferior to that of milan and inter.