The Old guard (4 Viewers)

[Alen]

[ripping my heart off, writing a post]

Without any feelings and ignoring the love I have for the older players, I'm trying to be as much more objective as possible.

I'm aware of most of the replies i'll get and I accept all the criticism or even harsh words on my account. I know how much I love most of the players i'll mention in my post so critics and harsh words won't touch me.

In anger, a month or so ago, I said that we won't win shit until we rely on the old guard.
People told me these guys are winners, these guys deserve respect and these guys were our best players now and in the last years even if they're old now. There was no need to tell me that, because I know that.

Even this year Trez is our best scorer, Camoranesi was our best assist man before he got injured. Yes, even now Del Piero, Trez, Camo are our best players or among the best 5.

But the truth is that now we're not doing to well, are we? We're not winning, or getting close to winning, anything at all for 3 years now, are we? We depend on our old guard, our best players, but it takes us nowhere.

Trezeguet will be out for 40 days. He was injured before, during this season. He was injured half a year last season.
Camoranesi is out for a while now. Last year he missed some 3-4 months total. In 2007/08 in total he missed half a season total.
Ale was out for good part of this season.
Zebina missed 80% of the last 2 and a half seasons.
Cannavaro also had his fair share of injuries this year.

These 5 guys are earning 16.7m eur on wages, which is around 30m eur a year, with taxes added, and are among our top 12 earners.

Individually, you can find an excuse for all of them, or most of them, why they should stay, why they are useful. But our dependence on them is hurting more than it's helping and until most of them leave we won't be able to look forward.

And what's the solution? We can't sell them. Not at their age and not with the wages they're getting. For Del Piero it's even insulting to think about selling him because he actually is THE club's legend.
So what is the solution? Wage cut? Cannavaro's contract expires in 2010 so it's solved. The others have contracts until 2011. What to do with them? If they don't sign new contracts are we going to buy 4 replacements for all 4 of them in 2011? Will we have money for that?
Or will we buy replacements for some of them in 2010 and have a 4m eur per season guy on the pitch and a 4.5m eur per season replacement for the 4m eur guy, sitting on the bench?

As hard as it might look, we simply must say goodbye to at least 3 of them at the end of the season. Only when they start leaving we can seriously start building for the future, because the present and the recent past show us that no matter how good they are, they aren't good enough anymore to take us to the top and they surely won't be in the future, while their injuries and their wages are putting us in even harder position.

[/ripping my heart off, writing a post]

 

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[The Curr]

I completely agree. We'll achieve nothing until we move on from relying on these players.

On the issue of not being able to sell them, maybe Trez is the only one we could possible get someone to buy? There are rumours every so often linking him with various clubs.

Edit: Even though he's new to Juve, I'd include Grosso in this group.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Seems logical, but I think we'll be doing the other thing.

Our plans for the future look small. I have no idea what's going but hopefully Bettega is going to change something.

Cannavaro will take a staff role I assume, so as you said, one thing less to worry about.

Just as Del Piero, Trezeguet is a club legend but I don't think we'll keep him. We're probably just waiting for a good offer, middle east or not. I wouldn't like to see him leaving but I personally think that the chances of him staying are 20% even though they were talks that he's going to stay.

Zebina would be sold, but like there's someone who'd buy him with all the injuries.

As for Camo, it's rather difficult. We still have to decide which formation are we going stick with so we'll know about that when we get a new coach most likely. Still, whoever comes, I think he's counting on wingers and I'm sure we'll sign some. The bad thing is that I think Camo is going to stay and we're going to sign some average player until Camo leaves because we'd need him as a sub, and I don't certainly see us buying two players at that position.

As for Del Piero, he'll be deciding if he's ready to play one more year or not.

 

[Suns]

Del Piero is not in the mix, he's staying, end of discussion.

Then its really between Trez, Zebina, Canna and Camoranesi. In an ideal world Trezeguet should also not be in the discussion but since he's said before that he wants to leave then I can't see why we should force him to stay.

Zebina and Cannavaro have nothing to do here, they should be out and gone.

Camoranesi is one of my favorite players and he should stay. He could be really good from the bench.

Basically, I think we shouldn't be using them from the start, we should keep Del Piero and Camo in the team and they can come in from the bench. As long as we don't rely on them as starters for a whole season cuz thats not realistic, then we're good.

 

[The Curr]

Del Piero is not in the mix, he's staying, end of discussion.

Then its really between Trez, Zebina, Canna and Camoranesi. In an ideal world Trezeguet should also not be in the discussion but since he's said before that he wants to leave then I can't see why we should force him to stay.

I agree.

Zebina and Cannavaro have nothing to do here, they should be out and gone.

Cannavaro will retire when his contract ends in 2010 so he's not really an issue. In theory, yes, sell Zebina. In reality, no one is going to buy Zebina.

Camoranesi is one of my favorite players and he should stay. He could be really good from the bench.

Yeah, I was also thinking that he could be useful from the bench but, IMO, only if he took a pay cut.

 

[Martin]

Well, the plan was that we reinforce the squad with younger players and they will be our future, right? That didn't work at all, Diego is 5% of the impact player we were hoping he would be. And Melo is worth 5m not 25m.

I'm willing to agree with you that the old guard presents an obstacle, but let's be honest here, we DON'T have any players to displace them at the moment. Your whole argument is based on the hypothesis that we get rid of them, free the money from their wages and replace them. Frankly I have my doubts. So Nedved's high wage is gone. Did we replace him adequately? I would say no.

I agree on the problem, I don't have that much faith in your solution.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

well, nedved also sucked in his first season

 

[The Curr]

Well, the plan was that we reinforce the squad with younger players and they will be our future, right? That didn't work at all, Diego is 5% of the impact player we were hoping he would be. And Melo is worth 5m not 25m.

They've both been very poor but so has everyone else. I believe it has more to do with coaching and tactics than it does with them being bad players.

I agree on the problem, I don't have that much faith in your solution.

Do you have any alternative solutions?

 

[Martin]

They've both been very poor but so has everyone else. I believe it has more to do with coaching and tactics than it does with them being bad players.

I think so too. I don't think we will have a marked improvement until we get a good coach.

Do you have any alternative solutions?

No.

 

[Dostoevsky]

It's all up to the new coach (hopefully).

If we decide to play with one striker, Trez will be sold.

Zebina situation shouldn't be heated because Secco can't sell him, it's his injuries. Many clubs wanted him, but it just vanishes.

Camo is missing more and more and even though he's one of my fav players we should replace him. Still, as I already said, I don't see us selling him so he'll probably stay as a back up and kill our budget for wages. I doubt he'd renew his deal for the same year just to cut down the wages. If we do buy someone, we're still one player short because we shouldn't rely on Sali or even Marchisio playing on the right.

Our team has too many average players and just a few world class players, it has to be changed. We are not going achieve anything with Grosso's, Legro's, Canna's, Grygera's etc. Our defense is average at best. There's only Chiellini who's top notch, the rest are all shaky, and inconsistent.

Our midfield should change. And yet again, a new coach should decide how to do that. We must sell Tiago at the end of the season. Camo's issue should be dealt with and the rest should just stay. If we're going to buy any new player, Poulsen should be sold but NOT replaced with a player like Gago, Ledesma or even D'Agostino. We wouldn't get anything.

Giovinco should be getting more chances, left side is also wounded. It's only him there, it's not a place for Alex and De Ceglie doesn't seem someone worth a spot in the first team.

There are too many issues and too little time. The best thing we can do is to chase players who can cover both sides and help us go through one year, so we can relax in two years, slowly. It's why I think the coach problem should be resolved ASAP, we need somebody who know what is he doing, Ciro should pack his bags. Then we can start with the talks for certain players but if we keep it this way, we'll miss many because other clubs will snatch them.

There are many players who would pay off most likely. Dzeko seems gone already but we should react fast if we want Krasic. He's a type of player that can help us and he can cover both sides. Players like Caceres shouldn't be here next season, where we need one great CB next to Chiellini since Canna should leave. It will take us at least 2 more years to start something new but nonetheless

React before it's too late.

 

[Red]

Every player has a limited amount of time when he is useful, and there is no doubt the older players mentioned are reaching the end of their usefullness.

However, I can't say I'm hugely concerned about replacing them.

I'm going to take the positive position and say that it gives the chance for a fresh start: buy players to fit whatever system is chosen, rather than fitting the old guys to the system or being tactically limited by having to base a system around certain players.

While it is not ideal to have to replace so many significant figures in a short period of time, at least the financial position is looking sound, so it should be possible to get good replacements.

 

[Lawnchair Bes]

conte just quit atalanta ... for greener pastures maybe?

 

[Osman]

Del Piero is not in the mix, he's staying, end of discussion.

Then its really between Trez, Zebina, Canna and Camoranesi. In an ideal world Trezeguet should also not be in the discussion but since he's said before that he wants to leave then I can't see why we should force him to stay.

Zebina and Cannavaro have nothing to do here, they should be out and gone.

Camoranesi is one of my favorite players and he should stay. He could be really good from the bench.

Basically, I think we shouldn't be using them from the start, we should keep Del Piero and Camo in the team and they can come in from the bench. As long as we don't rely on them as starters for a whole season cuz thats not realistic, then we're good.

Perfectly said, this is what is likely to happend and should happen. Trez is sadly gone I think, and for him and for us might be for the better. Zebina and Canna just bye bye, Canna can stay as staff or something (was short solution anyway, so no way another season as starter), Zebina ridicolous injury record and not so good anyway. Ale and Camo must stay and play when they are their best (defenite x-factor by both then), and get rest with their fragile bodies as when schedule gets hectic.

We will need preferly a top striker to replace Trez, must totally revamp our defence. And preferly a young and talented RW to compete with Camo and fill him for him very well when Camo is out so often, eventually take over. I'm wishful enough to totally see this player be in the 15 years younger Eden Hazard.

 

[Sad Statue]

sell zebina and canna. zebina has played no games the last year and canna is useless.

treze, del and camo must stay. although they will have to accept thath they will be squad players now and not regular first team players. just like real does with raul and manchester with giggs and scholes...

 

[The Curr]

sell zebina and canna

Great. Who'll buy them?

 

[Alen]

treze, del and camo must stay. although they will have to accept thath they will be squad players now and not regular first team players. just like real does with raul and manchester with giggs and scholes...

But that's where the problem is. Even if these three stay as squad players and spend fair amount of time injured or on the bench, we'll first have to buy 2 or 3 players for the starting line-up, pay the wages of these 2-3 players and pay the very high wages of Camo, Ale and Trez.

I really doubt we're financially powerful to do it.

We pay ~24 million euro yearly for the wages of Ale, Camo and Trez.

I agree that Del Piero is out of this debate. And probably he'll do what Maldini was doing for Milan in his last 5 years when he accepted, iirc, 4 wage cuts.
But for the other two something else must be done and a hard decision must be taken.

 

[Red]

When is Camoranesi contracted to?

 

[Alen]

When is Camoranesi contracted to?

2011

He, Zebina, Trez, Brazzo, Legro, Manninger and Ale all have contracts until 2011.

 

[Sad Statue]

Great. Who'll buy them?

we got them for free, let them go for free. their wages are a total waste. especially zebina's.

But that's where the problem is. Even if these three stay as squad players and spend fair amount of time injured or on the bench, we'll first have to buy 2 or 3 players for the starting line-up, pay the wages of these 2-3 players and pay the very high wages of Camo, Ale and Trez.

I really doubt we're financially powerful to do it.

We pay ~24 million euro yearly for the wages of Ale, Camo and Trez.

I agree that Del Piero is out of this debate. And probably he'll do what Maldini was doing for Milan in his last 5 years when he accepted, iirc, 4 wage cuts.
But for the other two something else must be done and a hard decision must be taken.

if someone agrees to be a squad player, there be a wage cut too. this is undebatable.


anyway. some players should end their careers here. camo, trez, del, buff and chiellini should do what neddy did...

 

[chester]

I agree with Alen here, they are too well payed for what they deliver on the field.

In my opinion, Trez don't necessarily need to be sold, we can also keep him, if he wants, but with a new contract with a lower wage, and then try to sell one of Amauri or Iaquinta. Trez the can be used as a sub, and we can invest in a new talented striker if available.

Zebina needs to go, Canna should retire or join Napoli or something like that.

DP will probably do out his contract and get a job within the club.

With regard to Camo, I think he is past his prime (and if not, then he is injured way too often) and if a club is willing to pay money for him, we should let him go.