Like I said, we have a lot of buying that is necessary. Hopefully Bettega 
touched will lend a very much needed helping hand in that department.
touched will lend a very much needed helping hand in that department.
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The Old guard (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Alen
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Rab, we have too many old players and the wages we pay to some of them, who offer nothing in return, (like Zebina or Cannavaro for example) are destroying us.
You believe that age has little to do if the player is well prepared physically and I actually support you on this. But when half of your team is consisted of veterans, then there is a big probability that many of them won't be as well prepared physically, they'll be out injured a lot, and in the end the team will play a very slow football.
Our board obviously isn't buying replacements for this players, while they are here and if they do, they won't buy an expensive top class player with high wages.
We bought Diego only after Nedved left. We'll buy a top class replacement for Camo only after he leaves, and the same goes for Trez and Ale.
I'd hate it if we spend money to buy a MR "Tiago" to be rotated with Camo, because we can't afford a much better MR while Camo is still here.
I understand that we can't get rid of them all at once. That's why we must do it gradually.
I'll take Del Piero out of the picture because he surely won't be sold and we won't be assholes to tell him to leave. So lets accept that Ale stays here till he retires.
But for Camo and Trez we need to find another solution and I firmly believe that one of these two will have to leave this summer and we buy a replacement for him, a quality one.
Then in 2011 we do it with the other one.
Because if we don't, we'll surely suffer in 2011 and maybe even more after 2011.
You believe that age has little to do if the player is well prepared physically and I actually support you on this. But when half of your team is consisted of veterans, then there is a big probability that many of them won't be as well prepared physically, they'll be out injured a lot, and in the end the team will play a very slow football.
Our board obviously isn't buying replacements for this players, while they are here and if they do, they won't buy an expensive top class player with high wages.
We bought Diego only after Nedved left. We'll buy a top class replacement for Camo only after he leaves, and the same goes for Trez and Ale.
I'd hate it if we spend money to buy a MR "Tiago" to be rotated with Camo, because we can't afford a much better MR while Camo is still here.
I understand that we can't get rid of them all at once. That's why we must do it gradually.
I'll take Del Piero out of the picture because he surely won't be sold and we won't be assholes to tell him to leave. So lets accept that Ale stays here till he retires.
But for Camo and Trez we need to find another solution and I firmly believe that one of these two will have to leave this summer and we buy a replacement for him, a quality one.
Then in 2011 we do it with the other one.
Because if we don't, we'll surely suffer in 2011 and maybe even more after 2011.
Some overreacting here?
Manchester United are still playing Giggs, and his 36. Camo "just" 33.
I think Camo needs to retire from NT football (he will do it after wc 2010 i think). Obviously Camo is old now and injury prone, but i wouldnt go as far as ditch him. He can still play as a rotation player.
If we sell Camo (wont get much for him) we will have to find a new RW and possibly backup. If we keep Camo then we still should buy a new RW, but we would have a quality rotation player/backup in Camo. And then in 2 years time for example, Rossi can step up or smth.
We should get rid of Brazzo instead, not the other way around.
Zebina and Canna dont worry me too much, one is playing 2 times in a season in the past 2 years, other is at the end of his career (1 year deal, wasnt it?).
Attack is a concern. Trez probably has to go, and i am saying this because, DP obviously will still keep playing, so in that sense, Trez chances as a backup will be also quite difficult.
I am also frustrated about Amauri and Iaquinta. One is not finding the goal too often, other also seems to have injury problems.
I think we need to sign 2 strikers next summer.
But the most important thing, is getting a proper coach.
Because if we keep continuing with the Ciros or possibly Contes, not much will change, and then we wont even have the old guard to save us, instead the pitch will be full of mediocre players.
Manchester United are still playing Giggs, and his 36. Camo "just" 33.
I think Camo needs to retire from NT football (he will do it after wc 2010 i think). Obviously Camo is old now and injury prone, but i wouldnt go as far as ditch him. He can still play as a rotation player.
If we sell Camo (wont get much for him) we will have to find a new RW and possibly backup. If we keep Camo then we still should buy a new RW, but we would have a quality rotation player/backup in Camo. And then in 2 years time for example, Rossi can step up or smth.
We should get rid of Brazzo instead, not the other way around.
Zebina and Canna dont worry me too much, one is playing 2 times in a season in the past 2 years, other is at the end of his career (1 year deal, wasnt it?).
Attack is a concern. Trez probably has to go, and i am saying this because, DP obviously will still keep playing, so in that sense, Trez chances as a backup will be also quite difficult.
I am also frustrated about Amauri and Iaquinta. One is not finding the goal too often, other also seems to have injury problems.
I think we need to sign 2 strikers next summer.
But the most important thing, is getting a proper coach.
Because if we keep continuing with the Ciros or possibly Contes, not much will change, and then we wont even have the old guard to save us, instead the pitch will be full of mediocre players.
You didn't really read my posts, did you Stephan?
1. Is Giggs the only quality player in his position in Manchester?
2. Was Giggs injured for 50% of the time in the last 3 years?
3. Is Giggs "sub" injured 90% of the time?
4. How big are Giggs' wages?
Like I said, until some older players are getting very high wages, our board won't buy another player in their position who'll earn just as much or even more (assuming that the bought player will be a top quality one, who'll sign for us for big wages).
So yes, cutting their wages might allow the board to buy top quality while these players are still here.
If we get rid of Brazzo and Camo accepts a pay cut, then we will buy another quality MR. If not, then even if Brazzo leaves we won't buy a top quality while Camo is still here and earning a lot. We will simply buy a sub for Camo, who will be nothing else but an average winger and since Camo will miss much of the season that average winger, lets call him Marchionni, will get a lot of playing time.
1. Is Giggs the only quality player in his position in Manchester?
2. Was Giggs injured for 50% of the time in the last 3 years?
3. Is Giggs "sub" injured 90% of the time?
4. How big are Giggs' wages?
Like I said, until some older players are getting very high wages, our board won't buy another player in their position who'll earn just as much or even more (assuming that the bought player will be a top quality one, who'll sign for us for big wages).
So yes, cutting their wages might allow the board to buy top quality while these players are still here.
If we get rid of Brazzo and Camo accepts a pay cut, then we will buy another quality MR. If not, then even if Brazzo leaves we won't buy a top quality while Camo is still here and earning a lot. We will simply buy a sub for Camo, who will be nothing else but an average winger and since Camo will miss much of the season that average winger, lets call him Marchionni, will get a lot of playing time.
Indeed we will get rid of them eventually, thats inevitable, actually i do believe that it will come rather sooner than most of the ppl here.
But i see no real options to get rid 3 of them in a season's time.
And the wholes those departments will make will ask for immediate backups, that will be counter effective to the original purpose imo.
The money coming from the sponsors is at many times indirect. For the jersey with Camo's , Treze's or DP's name and some other sponsorship deal that involves those particular names playing time (for holiday friendlies with some of our stars including in our first eleven) and so on.
Let alone we generally become a more attractive option to sponsorship with those certain players that ensure prestige points, esp when we fail at performance... (because those champions are still selling, DP for ex is still selling more jerseys than half of our team put together and Juve still benefits from that)
I think you can follow my reasoning from here...
Milan have those dinosaurs only because Berlu promised that and because they are unwilling to invest on new players, the very few players we still have are top level relics, icons/legends actually!
There is a difference here, they are a family, we are a company, but even as a company we have to keep the minimum prestige points/players we still have, (Camo, DP, Treze) IMO...
I also believe that the issue will fade away as well, our board has repeatedly showed their agressiveness to our legends and they will for sure not paying those huge salaries forever, their contracts will be re-adjusted and these players will accept it, as they accepted it when they had far better alternatives...
As for those:
"Del Piero, will also leave. If we manage to sell them, Tiago, Poulsen, Almiron will leave too, maybe Grosso."
give them hell, of course you know my stance on such dead wood anyways
I thought you meant DP, Camo and DP mostly (although if Camo keeps losing caps with that rate, he should accept 50% cut on his salary, at least!)
I dont consider them old guard or legends and i dont think you included them on your initial calculations, they should be offloaded first and then if one Camo, Treze and DP do not accept a fair contract, him too!!
But i see no real options to get rid 3 of them in a season's time.
And the wholes those departments will make will ask for immediate backups, that will be counter effective to the original purpose imo.
The money coming from the sponsors is at many times indirect. For the jersey with Camo's , Treze's or DP's name and some other sponsorship deal that involves those particular names playing time (for holiday friendlies with some of our stars including in our first eleven) and so on.
Let alone we generally become a more attractive option to sponsorship with those certain players that ensure prestige points, esp when we fail at performance... (because those champions are still selling, DP for ex is still selling more jerseys than half of our team put together and Juve still benefits from that)
I think you can follow my reasoning from here...
Milan have those dinosaurs only because Berlu promised that and because they are unwilling to invest on new players, the very few players we still have are top level relics, icons/legends actually!
There is a difference here, they are a family, we are a company, but even as a company we have to keep the minimum prestige points/players we still have, (Camo, DP, Treze) IMO...
I also believe that the issue will fade away as well, our board has repeatedly showed their agressiveness to our legends and they will for sure not paying those huge salaries forever, their contracts will be re-adjusted and these players will accept it, as they accepted it when they had far better alternatives...
As for those:
"Del Piero, will also leave. If we manage to sell them, Tiago, Poulsen, Almiron will leave too, maybe Grosso."
give them hell, of course you know my stance on such dead wood anyways
I thought you meant DP, Camo and DP mostly (although if Camo keeps losing caps with that rate, he should accept 50% cut on his salary, at least!)
I dont consider them old guard or legends and i dont think you included them on your initial calculations, they should be offloaded first and then if one Camo, Treze and DP do not accept a fair contract, him too!!
I am just saying that from the old guard, Camo should be kept, even if injury prone.
Its up to Secco and board to come up with a proper contract deal. Everyone involved should understand that Camo can only go down from here on. And we need to find a long term solution. But Camo can still be valuable as a backup. I also expecting that Camo at his age and with his body, should know that his chances to get a big contract in some other club are also difficult, so he needs to accept a pay cut.
But if he was ready to stay for Serie B, maybe he is ready for a paycut also now.
Its up to Secco and board to come up with a proper contract deal. Everyone involved should understand that Camo can only go down from here on. And we need to find a long term solution. But Camo can still be valuable as a backup. I also expecting that Camo at his age and with his body, should know that his chances to get a big contract in some other club are also difficult, so he needs to accept a pay cut.
But if he was ready to stay for Serie B, maybe he is ready for a paycut also now.
By the time the football and Juve legends, DP, Buffon, Camo, Treze and Neddy have decided to stay with us in our worst moment of our entire history.
Help us return in serie A and bring us back to CL at no time, winning once again their weight in gold, we OUGHT to pay tribute to them.
If there is one thing we need to keep sacred is that!
Those gents have earned that, the hardest way possible!
IF, they become dead wood and draw us back, both performance and financially wise, we could only then considering reducing their salary.
Not when they are active top goalscorers, assistmen, NT starters, aspirational leaders and the reason of our pride and point of attraction for fans, sponsors and other players (Even Diego claimed that he joins Juve to join legends like DP)
Our fans and other players expects us to honor those players who gave us sooooo much, even if its not momentarily cost effective.
In the long run the situation was avoidable and it is our fault alone we have reached here. It is our fault alone we did not pre-calculated that they will grow old and naturally become subs/supporting units and we should bring starters, rather than a swarm of useless subs, as we have been doing for 4-5 years and we know fail to get rid of!
This is why i said it is a strategical mistake to invest on more subs when we did
and this is the price we are going to pay now because of this!
Our choices would certainly led us here.
It was not a pessimistic assumption, doom speak, conspiracy theory or necessary evil.
It was completely avoidable, but once again we are called to sacrifice our prestige, our legends, our history and because of that, our future, for the strategical mistakes we have conceded back then... we (esp Secco and the ones who control him) brought this to our selves!
Having said all that, im really uncertain about Camo myself, i admire him as a player and he still is a great tool, but he lost his appetite for football and it is now obvious that there is nothing we can do about it,
his latest injuries and attitude issues, files his as a very unreliable solution for our midfield and adding his age to the mix complicates things far too much...
DP is one step closer to retirement, but he can do better than that, if he keeps himself injury free and i believe that he has already accepted a lesser salary.
Treze is still twice the finisher, Amauri will ever be and a great squad option, if he stays, i believe that he will accept a contract with the standards of his current age and form/status.
Help us return in serie A and bring us back to CL at no time, winning once again their weight in gold, we OUGHT to pay tribute to them.
If there is one thing we need to keep sacred is that!
Those gents have earned that, the hardest way possible!
IF, they become dead wood and draw us back, both performance and financially wise, we could only then considering reducing their salary.
Not when they are active top goalscorers, assistmen, NT starters, aspirational leaders and the reason of our pride and point of attraction for fans, sponsors and other players (Even Diego claimed that he joins Juve to join legends like DP)
Our fans and other players expects us to honor those players who gave us sooooo much, even if its not momentarily cost effective.
In the long run the situation was avoidable and it is our fault alone we have reached here. It is our fault alone we did not pre-calculated that they will grow old and naturally become subs/supporting units and we should bring starters, rather than a swarm of useless subs, as we have been doing for 4-5 years and we know fail to get rid of!
This is why i said it is a strategical mistake to invest on more subs when we did
and this is the price we are going to pay now because of this!
Our choices would certainly led us here.
It was not a pessimistic assumption, doom speak, conspiracy theory or necessary evil.
It was completely avoidable, but once again we are called to sacrifice our prestige, our legends, our history and because of that, our future, for the strategical mistakes we have conceded back then... we (esp Secco and the ones who control him) brought this to our selves!
Having said all that, im really uncertain about Camo myself, i admire him as a player and he still is a great tool, but he lost his appetite for football and it is now obvious that there is nothing we can do about it,
his latest injuries and attitude issues, files his as a very unreliable solution for our midfield and adding his age to the mix complicates things far too much...
DP is one step closer to retirement, but he can do better than that, if he keeps himself injury free and i believe that he has already accepted a lesser salary.
Treze is still twice the finisher, Amauri will ever be and a great squad option, if he stays, i believe that he will accept a contract with the standards of his current age and form/status.
Thats why, when i started my post I defined "old guard" so there aren't any confusion for misreading/misunderstanding my post.
Personally, I don't consider neither Zebina or Cannavaro old guard. Zebina came with Capello e.g. 2004. camoranesi who is the newest of the old guard (in my definition) arrived in 2002.
Thats why I only specified 5 players as old guard.
If you are considering, Zebina and Cannavaro as old guard then I have to agree with you partially. Because those are only 2 players out of 7 "old guard". And if the rule was all or none, meaning either loose all the old guard or keep'em all, I'd go with keep'em since I really think the "5" are definitely needed.
Personally, I don't consider neither Zebina or Cannavaro old guard. Zebina came with Capello e.g. 2004. camoranesi who is the newest of the old guard (in my definition) arrived in 2002.
Thats why I only specified 5 players as old guard.
If you are considering, Zebina and Cannavaro as old guard then I have to agree with you partially. Because those are only 2 players out of 7 "old guard". And if the rule was all or none, meaning either loose all the old guard or keep'em all, I'd go with keep'em since I really think the "5" are definitely needed.
When do their contracts expire? They will eventually retire one by one. I say we shouldn't offer them contract extensions, and none of that one year with an option of a 2'nd extension BS!
I honestly don't expect us to win anything within the coming 2-3 years; however, what we definitely need to do is build a team that is capable of challenging and competing for honors. Replace the pieces gradually, and eventually you will have a winning formation.
Calciopoli killed us, but we are back, finishing in the top 4 in Serie A and regularly qualifying for the CL (thanks in no small part to the fact that Serie A has become a weaker league). In the past we were accustomed to winning; however, times have changed and we need to adjust, acclimatize, and accustom ourselves to a couple of more seasons of disappointment and failure (when Juve don't win, it's considered a failure). Patience and gradually rebuilding is the way forward; the board have made a significant number of errors which have set us back by a couple of years, but I am expecting a young, dynamic, and highly competitive Juve come season 2012-2013.
I honestly don't expect us to win anything within the coming 2-3 years; however, what we definitely need to do is build a team that is capable of challenging and competing for honors. Replace the pieces gradually, and eventually you will have a winning formation.
Calciopoli killed us, but we are back, finishing in the top 4 in Serie A and regularly qualifying for the CL (thanks in no small part to the fact that Serie A has become a weaker league). In the past we were accustomed to winning; however, times have changed and we need to adjust, acclimatize, and accustom ourselves to a couple of more seasons of disappointment and failure (when Juve don't win, it's considered a failure). Patience and gradually rebuilding is the way forward; the board have made a significant number of errors which have set us back by a couple of years, but I am expecting a young, dynamic, and highly competitive Juve come season 2012-2013.
Mate...Wicked post. Best I have seen on here for a while. But the above, is a little too silly for my liking. I see Zidane as far more of a legend, as I do, Roberto Baggio, Buffon...Del Piero has been an undeniably high class statesmen and decent player for the club. He exudes something benign and respectful, and i could never fault his attitude or behaviour. However...he is nowhere near the talent levels of the other 3 i mentioned. and that is avoiding going further back in time...Just the players I have seen. in my NOW...He has NEVER excelled at international level. I have love and adoration for the man, but I have never thought he was one of the best players in the world. He used to be capable of world class moments, but not now. Trez has done as much for this club as DP. Perhaps more, if we are speaking purely on the field. Most the italians I know, feel the same. They see Trez as, now and in his prime, a far more dangerous player.
I have no problems whatsoever culling the old timers. EVERY top team does it. If the old timers in question have given exemplary service, then keep them on in some capacity...like Zidane at Madrid.
In another post in this particular forum I was earlier on today outlining the backbone of the NEW juventus...which presently, comprises of
Buffon, Chiellini, Diego, Melo, Marchisio, Giovinco, Momo...possibly with the additions of Immobile, Ekdal, Ariuado...BIG question mark over that POSSIBLY though.
we have 7 players who we could and must begin to build a team around. Caceres is an unknown quantity at centreback, so put him in the POSSIBLY category...Still, we need centre back, two fullbacks, and strikers.
The foundation is there...
Fine by me, cull DP, Camo, Trez, Amauri, Canna, Legro, Zebina, Grosso, De Ceglie...I would not shed a tear.
Its a business and a sporting outfit. Make money and win games. Respect those who have respected us, and the club, but not at the expense of losing money and losing games.
I have no problems whatsoever culling the old timers. EVERY top team does it. If the old timers in question have given exemplary service, then keep them on in some capacity...like Zidane at Madrid.
In another post in this particular forum I was earlier on today outlining the backbone of the NEW juventus...which presently, comprises of
Buffon, Chiellini, Diego, Melo, Marchisio, Giovinco, Momo...possibly with the additions of Immobile, Ekdal, Ariuado...BIG question mark over that POSSIBLY though.
we have 7 players who we could and must begin to build a team around. Caceres is an unknown quantity at centreback, so put him in the POSSIBLY category...Still, we need centre back, two fullbacks, and strikers.
The foundation is there...
Fine by me, cull DP, Camo, Trez, Amauri, Canna, Legro, Zebina, Grosso, De Ceglie...I would not shed a tear.
Its a business and a sporting outfit. Make money and win games. Respect those who have respected us, and the club, but not at the expense of losing money and losing games.
I think the matter needs a bit more consideration than we are right now. It goes deeper than simply business and plain sporting decisions.
We are all seeing how much different this team is from the Nedved was playing. The soft attributes transmitted through the team diminished, the values of the team are not replicated through the players because we are losing these type of players. The effect of old guard goes beyond what they do on the field or how they effect the balance of the books. Many have talked about the team's may be losing its identity and its a combination of the players, coach and management. That is why we should consider carefully when they fazed out.
The leadership void should be filled by the like of chiellini, and Marchi but the problems lies in the fact that they are the only ones who are worthy from the new crop of players. The other are either weak mentally or can't back their words with performances.
Having said that its still important to have some sort of plan for life after them. Trezi sadly seems out sooner than later and the same with canna maybe zebina. Gigi is here to stay and i think camo should be the same.
The talk about the youth is nice, but we can't see any team in Italy actually going through the motions of integrating the younger players while launching a genuine title challenge in the manner we need to replace the dead wood and old players we have. Getting these players in shouldn't be a one time thing and should be thought of over time. Sadly we didn't do it in the previous years where we they would've got more chances.
Final word about the comments regarding the squad. If this squad consists of a couple of consistent performers, few inconsistent, more dead wood, a few old players that carried us in the past and can't cut it anymore or are injured. How are we blaming this all on the coach and no one else?
We are all seeing how much different this team is from the Nedved was playing. The soft attributes transmitted through the team diminished, the values of the team are not replicated through the players because we are losing these type of players. The effect of old guard goes beyond what they do on the field or how they effect the balance of the books. Many have talked about the team's may be losing its identity and its a combination of the players, coach and management. That is why we should consider carefully when they fazed out.
The leadership void should be filled by the like of chiellini, and Marchi but the problems lies in the fact that they are the only ones who are worthy from the new crop of players. The other are either weak mentally or can't back their words with performances.
Having said that its still important to have some sort of plan for life after them. Trezi sadly seems out sooner than later and the same with canna maybe zebina. Gigi is here to stay and i think camo should be the same.
The talk about the youth is nice, but we can't see any team in Italy actually going through the motions of integrating the younger players while launching a genuine title challenge in the manner we need to replace the dead wood and old players we have. Getting these players in shouldn't be a one time thing and should be thought of over time. Sadly we didn't do it in the previous years where we they would've got more chances.
Final word about the comments regarding the squad. If this squad consists of a couple of consistent performers, few inconsistent, more dead wood, a few old players that carried us in the past and can't cut it anymore or are injured. How are we blaming this all on the coach and no one else?
Melo and Diego were significantly BETTER players under different coaches, amongst a squad of arguably WORSE players, technically. This points to either the Manager, or someone rotten at the club as a whole.
I was not cutting down the passion and prestige of the club to simply a sporting outfit and business outfit, but they ARE two prime elements of running a football club. And on BOTH those counts we are failing, massively. Yes, we have a new stadium on the way which will likely set us up for many years. Yes, we are financially sound. But there can be NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER, that our prime assets, player wise, are losing value by the hour. Who is responsible for getting the most out of our team? The Manager. Who is responsible for acquisitions and sales? The manager and sporting director....Who is responsible for leading this club? The President. They are the people to blame. For what has become, the most lacking in heart and spirit Juventus I have ever seen.
I agree, that camo has been our greatest creator this season. But that isnt the same as saying he is still worth keeping at the club. Its an indication of how wretched we have become, that a player rarely fit, who spends more time off the field than on it, whose passion for the game and club is at best, questionable, is out prime threat offensively, creativity wise...like Trez he still has much to offer, but we are NOT AT ALL getting value for money. The club, the supporters, the team.
I was not cutting down the passion and prestige of the club to simply a sporting outfit and business outfit, but they ARE two prime elements of running a football club. And on BOTH those counts we are failing, massively. Yes, we have a new stadium on the way which will likely set us up for many years. Yes, we are financially sound. But there can be NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER, that our prime assets, player wise, are losing value by the hour. Who is responsible for getting the most out of our team? The Manager. Who is responsible for acquisitions and sales? The manager and sporting director....Who is responsible for leading this club? The President. They are the people to blame. For what has become, the most lacking in heart and spirit Juventus I have ever seen.
I agree, that camo has been our greatest creator this season. But that isnt the same as saying he is still worth keeping at the club. Its an indication of how wretched we have become, that a player rarely fit, who spends more time off the field than on it, whose passion for the game and club is at best, questionable, is out prime threat offensively, creativity wise...like Trez he still has much to offer, but we are NOT AT ALL getting value for money. The club, the supporters, the team.