The Old guard (2 Viewers)

[sateeh]

Mate...Wicked post. Best I have seen on here for a while. But the above, is a little too silly for my liking. I see Zidane as far more of a legend, as I do, Roberto Baggio, Buffon...Del Piero has been an undeniably high class statesmen and decent player for the club. He exudes something benign and respectful, and i could never fault his attitude or behaviour. However...he is nowhere near the talent levels of the other 3 i mentioned. and that is avoiding going further back in time...Just the players I have seen. in my NOW...He has NEVER excelled at international level. I have love and adoration for the man, but I have never thought he was one of the best players in the world. He used to be capable of world class moments, but not now. Trez has done as much for this club as DP. Perhaps more, if we are speaking purely on the field. Most the italians I know, feel the same. They see Trez as, now and in his prime, a far more dangerous player.

I have no problems whatsoever culling the old timers. EVERY top team does it. If the old timers in question have given exemplary service, then keep them on in some capacity...like Zidane at Madrid.

In another post in this particular forum I was earlier on today outlining the backbone of the NEW juventus...which presently, comprises of
Buffon, Chiellini, Diego, Melo, Marchisio, Giovinco, Momo...possibly with the additions of Immobile, Ekdal, Ariuado...BIG question mark over that POSSIBLY though.

we have 7 players who we could and must begin to build a team around. Caceres is an unknown quantity at centreback, so put him in the POSSIBLY category...Still, we need centre back, two fullbacks, and strikers.

The foundation is there...

Fine by me, cull DP, Camo, Trez, Amauri, Canna, Legro, Zebina, Grosso, De Ceglie...I would not shed a tear.

Its a business and a sporting outfit. Make money and win games. Respect those who have respected us, and the club, but not at the expense of losing money and losing games.

We'll leave the status of Alex to this club compared to the likes of Zidane, Baggio and the others because it will derail the discussion. The fact is he is a huge player for this team now, so consideration is required.

Melo and Diego were significantly BETTER players under different coaches, amongst a squad of arguably WORSE players, technically. This points to either the Manager, or someone rotten at the club as a whole.

Ballack, Sheva, Quaresma, Tiago, Almiron etc etc etc were all better players for their previous clubs than they are/were for the clubs they went to. Mourinho takes part of the blame but its not that simple. The environment was different, the related expectation, pressure is all different. The first two failed even though they went from title contenders to other title contenders but still couldn't handle what was put on them.
Melo was a great player for a team with minor expectations, set of fans that would always cheer and no burden of a huge price tag to contend with. He is having to content wit a completely different environment. The same goes and even more to Diego.

I was not cutting down the passion and prestige of the club to simply a sporting outfit and business outfit, but they ARE two prime elements of running a football club. And on BOTH those counts we are failing, massively. Yes, we have a new stadium on the way which will likely set us up for many years. Yes, we are financially sound. But there can be NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER, that our prime assets, player wise, are losing value by the hour. Who is responsible for getting the most out of our team? The Manager. Who is responsible for acquisitions and sales? The manager and sporting director....Who is responsible for leading this club? The President. They are the people to blame. For what has become, the most lacking in heart and spirit Juventus I have ever seen.

I agree, that camo has been our greatest creator this season. But that isnt the same as saying he is still worth keeping at the club. Its an indication of how wretched we have become, that a player rarely fit, who spends more time off the field than on it, whose passion for the game and club is at best, questionable, is out prime threat offensively, creativity wise...like Trez he still has much to offer, but we are NOT AT ALL getting value for money. The club, the supporters, the team.

That is true, our prime assets are diminishing in value. But you mention of this juventus team lack heart and spirit is where its essential to get this transition right. Otherwise we will be stuck with a bunch of players with no real leadership on the field. That is a huge point we are lacking and relates to the disgusting symptom of the lacking spirit we've been witnessing. One of the reasons we didn't see it last year was because we had Neddy(especially), Alex and Gigi to spur those average players on. Before moving the old guard out we need to get the like of chiellini, marchi and even sissoko to leadership positions where they could provide strong voices on the field.

 

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[Salvo]

we can only do one thing, we are doing it to an extent now, bring in fresh players and faaze out the old, a total overhaul is impossible.

 

[Lo-Pan]

The lack of leadership and players with fanatical drive is definitely another major problem. As to asking anyone to step up to that challenge, of galvanising others into action and battle, I dont think CHiellini has the right Mind for it. Still seems like a giant baby at times...Marchisio is too timid. No hint of leadership seen in him to my eyes. It hasn't been asked of him. Or anyone by the looks of things. Every team needs leaders. Chelsea seem to have too many. Which can make them either equal to any team on the planet, OR at war with themselves....We have no leaders. Buffon perhaps, but he is too far away to run past people, infecting them with his zeal.

Momo also doesn't show any leadership qualities. He can only lead by example. And his case that means hunting and destroying with no regard for his personal safety.

Diego is too small.
AMauri has the mental state, surely, of a man with zero hope. and should have been shot long ago.
Sali???? a goblin. with decent attitude though.
Canna...half dead.
Grosso...barely leads himself, let alone others.
Iaquinta...a possibility, as his determination levels are extreme, but...he has a hawks nose. Which doesnt inspire respect easily.

I think the midfielder we get in to replace tiago, will be a leader of sorts. It can be our only hope for this to be resolved, before the summer. as I dont see any of our players stepping up to the task...nothing is certain though, anything is possible.

 

[K.O.]

Iaquinta...a possibility, as his determination levels are extreme, but...he has a hawks nose. Which doesnt inspire respect easily.

 

[Cronios]

I think the matter needs a bit more consideration than we are right now. It goes deeper than simply business and plain sporting decisions.

We are all seeing how much different this team is from the Nedved was playing. The soft attributes transmitted through the team diminished, the values of the team are not replicated through the players because we are losing these type of players. The effect of old guard goes beyond what they do on the field or how they effect the balance of the books.

Every team needs leaders. We have no leaders.

Melo and Diego were significantly BETTER players under different coaches, amongst a squad of arguably WORSE players, technically. This points to either the Manager, or someone rotten at the club as a whole

Very good points there, both of you!
I had them in mind as well, but i would have to, double my post's length to include them!
They are so very well thought and put, though i dont regret leaving them out for you!

 

[sateeh]

The lack of leadership and players with fanatical drive is definitely another major problem. As to asking anyone to step up to that challenge, of galvanising others into action and battle, I dont think CHiellini has the right Mind for it. Still seems like a giant baby at times...Marchisio is too timid. No hint of leadership seen in him to my eyes. It hasn't been asked of him. Or anyone by the looks of things. Every team needs leaders. Chelsea seem to have too many. Which can make them either equal to any team on the planet, OR at war with themselves....We have no leaders. Buffon perhaps, but he is too far away to run past people, infecting them with his zeal.

Momo also doesn't show any leadership qualities. He can only lead by example. And his case that means hunting and destroying with no regard for his personal safety.

Diego is too small.
AMauri has the mental state, surely, of a man with zero hope. and should have been shot long ago.
Sali???? a goblin. with decent attitude though.
Canna...half dead.
Grosso...barely leads himself, let alone others.
Iaquinta...a possibility, as his determination levels are extreme, but...he has a hawks nose. Which doesnt inspire respect easily.

I think the midfielder we get in to replace tiago, will be a leader of sorts. It can be our only hope for this to be resolved, before the summer. as I dont see any of our players stepping up to the task...nothing is certain though, anything is possible.

So basically we are in a problem and will face one soon unless some players step up. Honestly I hoped/hoping Melo would step up and fill up some of that in the middle. Emerson did it very well before him.

Very good points there, both of you!
I had them in mind as well, bu i would have to double my post to include them!
They are so very well thought and put, though i dont regret leaving them out for you to!

No worries cron.

You always mentioned your views on the project and the management's long term planning, how do you think they planned for this ?

I see it as hope more than selective recruitment. They just hoped the good players bought would step up and the same with some of the youngsters.

 

[Cronios]

Currently, it seems that way, but their estimations and expectations are not quite compatible with mine to draw any safe conclusions just yet!
I know they lack exp, but even at my most romantic approach, i dont see where they were heading with that defense and players like, Boumsong, Grygera, Almiron, Poulsen and Tiago... They just dont fit in at any long term plans considering the starters and subs/youngsters we had, when we acquired them and the needs of our team.


Initially i concluded that they were just clueless a were realized those... risky moves and sacrifices for the momentary/imaginary gains, we never really benefited from, or could benefit from.

But i m not as pessimistic as some ppl say and still trying to find some reasoning behind them!

Some of those moves are perfectly understandable (Amauri, Sissoko, Melo, Diego)
we had realistic chances to strike gold somewhere there, but none of them was the aspirational we need. We will see what they have in mind for Marchisio and Giovinco)

 

[MikeM]

I really hate this "legend" BS sometimes. The only one of these old guys that is a real legend is Del Piero. Keep him (hopefully he will retire soon with dignity) but the rest can go. This is silly - holding onto players past their prime who are injured every other month.

 

[IrishZebra]

I really hate this "legend" BS sometimes. The only one of these old guys that is a real legend is Del Piero. Keep him (hopefully he will retire soon with dignity) but the rest can go. This is silly - holding onto players past their prime who are injured every other month.

Camo is a legend.

 

[MikeM]

Camo is a legend.

If he is then you are grouping him in the same place as Del Piero.

 

[IrishZebra]

If he is then you are grouping him in the same place as Del Piero.

Happily, Camo,Neddy,Alex and Gigi are thr 4 that still retain the Juve Spirit from long ago.

 

[Red]

Why isn't Trez in that group?

He's more of a legend than Camoranesi.

 

[chester]

Why isn't Trez in that group?

He's more of a legend than Camoranesi.

 

[IrishZebra]

Why isn't Trez in that group?

He's more of a legend than Camoranesi.

meh

 

[Hydde]

In paper, he is let me tell you.
Just look at his stats-

 

[am0110]

I dont like the fact that every player ,who has won CL in the past ,or played a two or three Cl finales,is called "legend" ,without going deeper into their performances during those seasons,heh Juve has so many legends in just past 10 years,naaa its to much

 

[Lo-Pan]

Why isn't Trez in that group?

He's more of a legend than Camoranesi.

Trez, DP, Nedved...for sure...Trez is in there more for his actual accomplishments on the pitch, less for the manner in which he goes about his business...and his loyalty to the club.

Camo isn't a legend to me. No chance...his attitude has always been wretched. He has talent, but its inconsistent. And in recent seasons has looked special, because we have had a dearth of players able to pass the ball. So we look to him...His passing is nowhere near the finest ball players of his generation...Gerrard, Beckham, Alonso, Pirlo...and he has rarely shown a steely team spirit.

It shocks me to think that a player who has flattered to deceive as much as impress in his career, would be considered a legend by any juve supporters...

Vialli, ravanelli, di livio, torricelli, zidane...peruzzi...kohler..deschamps even...these are legends to me. for they gave their ALL whilst at Juve.

I understand that the term legend is subjectively perceived. But a player who rarely gives his all, can rarely be a legend to me.

 

[Red]

I love Trezeguet and I never taken to Camoranesi.

However, I class them both together in many ways, especially when it comes to how much gratitutde is owed to them for Serie staying in B.

I give them very little credit, because they both wanted to leave and the club forced them to stay, not like Buffon, Del Piero and Nedved who stayed of their own free will.

Trezeguet, like you say, beats Camoranesi because he has achieved more.

 

[Fake Melo]

Found this thread scooping through old threads.

Must say Alen was on to something.

 

[Cronios]

Why isn't Trez in that group?

He's more of a legend than Camoranesi.

But... He is not even IT-alien!!
And he is not quite white either....