The Old guard (3 Viewers)

[Turk_Bianconero]

first of all I don't consider Cannavaro one of them. He has refused to be one of them and I can't do anything about it. Old guard are Del Piero, Trezeguet, Buffon, Camoranesi(and Nedved).

I would give them contract extension with pay cut. it's not like they will demand what they earn now and it doesn't mean they have to play. Once this chaotic period ends Old Guard will deliver like they did in last seasons. Problem is there was no manager at Juventus since Capello. We need someone who can't be argued. Before the old guard we should consider selling some others in our squad. Such as Amauri, Iaquinta, Legro, De Ceglie, Zebina, Salihamidzic, Grygera, Grosso, Poulsen and Portuguese virus.

as for replacements, if i was in Bettega's position

Trez to stay, Amauri to go. Dzeko is best canditate but lowest possibility. Maybe Gignac or Cavani.

Camo can handle one more season, as back up. We have to change our formation and start using wingers again. so we will need at leat one world class winger. Since we can't buy Ribery, we will go for cheaper and less known players like Krasic, Affelay, Arda.

Buffon to play until 2020.

Del Piero to play his last season in our new stadium. he definitely deserves it. Then he should be promoted to presidency

 

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[BIG DADDY!!!]

first of all I don't consider Cannavaro one of them. He has refused to be one of them and I can't do anything about it. Old guard are Del Piero, Trezeguet, Buffon, Camoranesi(and Nedved).

I would give them contract extension with pay cut. it's not like they will demand what they earn now and it doesn't mean they have to play. Once this chaotic period ends Old Guard will deliver like they did in last seasons. Problem is there was no manager at Juventus since Capello. We need someone who can't be argued. Before the old guard we should consider selling some others in our squad. Such as Amauri, Iaquinta, Legro, De Ceglie, Zebina, Salihamidzic, Grygera, Grosso, Poulsen and Portuguese virus.

as for replacements, if i was in Bettega's position

Trez to stay, Amauri to go. Dzeko is best canditate but lowest possibility. Maybe Gignac or Cavani.

Camo can handle one more season, as back up. We have to change our formation and start using wingers again. so we will need at leat one world class winger. Since we can't buy Ribery, we will go for cheaper and less known players like Krasic, Affelay, Arda.

Buffon to play until 2020.

Del Piero to play his last season in our new stadium. he definitely deserves it. Then he should be promoted to presidency

 

[Martin]

About Cannavaro, I have to wonder what exactly we are supposed to gain from hiring him after he retires. Isn't that how we got in trouble with Ciro? Is Canna qualified to be a youth coach or something? And if so, is he a good one? There's no point in hiring ex-players just because they used to be players.

I'd make an exception in DP's case as a honorary president or something if he wants that, but I wouldn't put him in charge of anything important without knowing he's cut out for it.

 

[.zero]

I agree with what Alen is conveying. I just don't think its feasible. We have too many holes to fill already and now its proposed to fill a giant void.

We all knew that one day we would have to move on from ADP, Trez, Camo, etc.. Now whether or not people accept it is another thing. But for the good of this club we need to start looking/moving forward with our personnel decisions. Re-vamping the "Old guard" is necessary but the question is how to go about doing so. Obviously the board will execute this piece by piece but in what order? And with what contingency plan to fill those roster spots left open.

Personally I think this will depend on who takes over as HC. Based on the type of team he wants to build is how this will play out. Also this restructuring can be considered a blessing for a new HC where he can come in and build his team from the ground up with a mix of young talent and also possible retain some veterans depending on the teams situation. All I can say is that the next 2 years are going to be really interesting for this club.

 

[Mark]

I'd kick Canna to the curb and let him go train Napoli kids. I guy like Ranocchia, Kjaer, Subotic can be brought in and replace him easily. I'm not against the loved Mexès or the never mentioned Mertesacker.

Camo can still stay another year. At 100% he can be great. When he's not the a younger replacement can play. Hazard or Krasic are my replacement picks.

DP has to realize he can't start every game because of age. I'd keep him and give him a job like Prez.

If we can find a club that wants Trez then we can sell him. We can look at Lukaku as a future replacement while Amauri/Iaquinta play most of the games.

3rd keeper would be from the Primavera and Chimenti could be hired as a motivational speaker.

I don't see a lot of clubs wanting the always injured Zebina. Too bad! When he's a 100% physically and mentally he's great. We'll probably never see that again. Many options to replace him.

and then there are others like Grosso who could be backups and young guns like Kolarov, Filipe or even the infidel starting for Juve. Brazzo can stay as a versatile backup.

We can't get rid of every old fart. A young team needs to feed on the experience of those guys.

 

[Hust]

I am in limbo here because when I started supporting Juve I was young enough to know the players but was never able to watch them on TV as much as some here because of where I grew up. I am honestly not as close to some of the players here like Rab is to DP for example. In my opinion no player is bigger than the club however if there was ever a player that was close to that it would be DP. With the clubs best interests at heart I have felt for some time now its time to replace our "old guard".

I have always said that its going to be expensive to rebuild our team, more so than some here care to think. While we are buying players and spending 50+m on players like Melo/Diego/Grosso without really actually replacing any older players we still need to find replacements for Trez, DP, Zebina, Camo and Canna not to mention strengthening other areas as well. Now we added 2 older players like Canna and Grosso with no youth to put in their place. In theory, we just made our transfer much more expensive.

In my opinion our club is really going about this the wrong way without at least trying our youth in the first team to see how they progress. We can't keep making 24m calculated risks on buying players to guarantee success when we have a potential dynamo in our youth ranks for that position. For example, Daud as a Camo sub/replacement, Ariaudo as a Canna sub/replacement, Immobile as a Trez sub/replacement, the list goes on. We have these exciting prospects in our ranks but are reluctant to use them so instead we seek expensive replacements like Dzeko, Krasic, Rafinha, etc. Not that I am against those players joining but then again we are not only losing money on their investments but also the time, effort, and money invested in our own youth systems go down the toilet. What is the point of a youth academy when we get one come through the system ever 2 or 3 years...or more actually?

IMO, the best way to rebuild is to try our youth in our first team while they have the chance to play along side the greats of the past decade. Looking at the seasons productivity of our old guard it seems as though maybe them teaching our youth in the first team might in fact be much more beneficial to our club and future than their own and off performances built around their "old age" injuries.

It is time that MANY of our players get replaced and set as backup squad players and I would like to call them teachers as well. We have a wealth of experience that our youth need to tap into and it doesn't seem like our club has taken that route. The club I love is the club whose interests I hold dearly, and in my view that means replacing our old guard and what ever happens to them afterwards is what happens. It is the life of the footballer and has been for a hundred years. When its over its over, nothing else can change or fight against age, its time to let go and move on to a new guard that will someday be called the "old guard". It really is time to move on guys, let it our legends go and I am sure the club will offer them respective positions behind the scenes as a form of repayment for their years of service.

 

[Bjerknes]

Cannavaro isn't even part of the Old Guard. Traitors should not be allowed in good standing like that. Shouldn't have been brought back in the first place.

 

[Hust]

Well my point that I tried to make Andy was that we added another old player to our team that will need to be replaced. We already had a few and last summer we added Canna and Grosso, so now we need to replace the old guard that stayed and Grosso and Canna. We basically shot ourselves in the foot IMO

 

[Bjerknes]

Grosso was OK, but Canna was not, especially if we were relying on him to be Chiellini's main partner instead of just a back up.

What we should also be doing is giving the youngsters more time this season since it's already basically over.

 

[Hust]

Grosso was OK, but Canna was not, especially if we were relying on him to be Chiellini's main partner instead of just a back up.

What we should also be doing is giving the youngsters more time this season since it's already basically over.

Did you read my post, sir?

 

[Cronios]

I disagree, we ought to pre-calculate this and spend the money we wasted on failures like Almiron, Tiago, Poulsen etc... more wisely.

Those gents are not only the last drops of prestige our eternally corrupted,
but also a bastion of hopes and aspiration, we can build upon!!

New failures like Tiago and Poulsen will not be all that less expensive, we will be forced to replace them with many medium ranked players instead of keeping them for reserves. And the difference from their reduced (by their age) salaries, is not that great from completely incompetent players like Tiago, who gives us no real solution neither extra prestige or aspiration with their presence alone.

It is utter hyppocricy to blame everything on DP's, Camo's and Treze's wages, when we are keepi paying the salaries of Poulsen, Almiron, Zebina, Tiago and co
If we wanted to be efficient and maximize our chances, we should get rid of them first!
But when i blamed Secco for that and pointed out how much this mistakes cost us, "some" people overlooked that, only to back stab DP, Treze and Camo now, because they face injuries, imagine if they werent the first score-men and assist-men, not so long time ago...

If im not mistaken DP and Treze are ready or have already accepted lesser salaires for the years to come. And dont forget that a huge part of their salaries are tied to sponsorship.
We will lose a great deal of income if we lose our last stars and the income related to them.
Players like Tiago and Almiron never made an income to our club and we have yet managed to offload them!

 

[Hust]

Basically at the end of the day we have a lot of dead weight we need to cut. A lot.

 

[Cronios]

And we should set our priorities before committing crimes to our history and prestige...

 

[Hust]

It's a shame no one is dumb to buy our excess baggage.

 

[Hust]

@ Alen: Can you go back the last 3 years and calculate all the wages we have spend on players that we have been unable to sell? (such as Almiron, Tiago, etc)

 

[ZAF3000]

I can see where your coming from with your post, but I do not agree with it.

You said that although we relied on the Old Guard in the past 3 years we did not win anything.
Before I reply to this statement we have to define the Old Guard. To me they are: "Del Piero, Buffon, Nedved, Trezeguet and Camoranesi". With the first three being the golden ones.
If it wasn't to them (specifically the first three) we wouldn't have returned to Serie A so fast.
You say we did not win anything although they were there. Ok take them out of the equation and lets see what happens,, oh wait, it is happening right now. Our situation at the moment is Juve w/o the old guard. When Trezeguet stepped out in the 20th min none of the old guard were on the field.

The only player who has played this season consistently was Buffon. Nedved has retired, Del Piero was injured and since his return he is yet to be utilized. Camoranesi and Trezeguet are going in and out of injuries.

There is an argument of them not being a reliable choice because of their age and injuries. If they were the only ones getting injured frequently then I'd say yes. but they aren't. We have a huge problem in the fitness/medical staff. Someone is not doing his/her job right.
18 months ago (which is not such a long time ago) Del Piero and Trezeguet shared 41 goals between them in Serie A. Infact, since Capello's arrival in 2004 Del Piero has maintained being our seasonal top scorer in all competitions. Thats 5 years in a raw. While we all know how useful and lethal trezeguet is. He has been our top scorer this year though not playing very frequently.
Buffon is consistently the #1 goalkeeper in the world (some argue in history, but lets not get into that) and Camoranesi is still one of the first names Lippi puts on squad selection (he admitted that himself).

In the past two season we could not win a trophy because honestly we did not have a proper coach to win and our squad was far from being deep. We all saw Del Piero was running around around alone scoring goals while Buffon was clearing them from his side of the field. Some may argue that us reaching the knockout stage in the CL was single handedly done by Del Piero. And that was 6 months or so ago.

The thread should not be on how to get rid of the old guard. Instead, we should be discussing the best ways to utilize them.

 

[Azzurri7]

Good post Alen. But I have couple of questions and then I'll reply concerning our old guard(Del Piero, Trezeguet and Camoranesi) Buffon is a Goalkeeper and Nedved has retired so no need to mention them.


Are you thinking of a solution ATM because of our current results?
Would you be thinking the same had our situation been with Ferrara or different coach better?


Before I start talking about our guard, I want to admit that I'm too biased, specially when it comes to them(old guard). I can't help it, therefore, I can be wrong or spot on to some.

If it was up to me, I would never find a solution of selling/helping them find their way out of the club and I'm referring to Del Piero, Trezeguet and Camoranesi.

Football has changed, Barcelona players for example don't have veterans or old guard yet they managed to win everything last year. Two years before it was the same case with Manchester. But to me it's always different, I have a different definition of how I want my team. I want my team to be a mixture of veterans, youngsters and an idol or two in the squad.

Not to mention the affection they have on us fans(which is also part of the game), and I want to talk about myself here but I'm sure too many fans share this feeling...when I see David scoring or Alex playing it's just... I don't know, I'm in a heaven man.

We can have youngsters in our team and we can be doing much better than now, but probably no one of them will bring tears to my eyes like our old guard(Pavel is an example).


To talk more about our current situation and leave emotions aside, I really really think we are a great squad with no problems concerning wages/age/player's quality etc... we are just playing bad football and the problem relies on everyone. Too many people thought at the start of the season, Juve or non Juve fans that we are capable of winning the League and even the CL looking at our squad.


I would never stop supporting Juventus if they got rid of our old guard but I would be less emotional and I'm not sure if I'll be as interested as I was before specially if they were forced out of the Club.

Now if they want to leave, then it's a whole different story and we might as-well benefit from their departure.

 

[Hust]

Sooner or later Rab, the Old Guard will leave. A new one will come and like you, we will rebuild our emotions with new idols and legends. This is the way it is, our guard is getting older man, no one wants to see them go but the fact is they can't play forever.

 

[Alen]

I disagree, we ought to pre-calculate this and spend the money we wasted on failures like Almiron, Tiago, Poulsen etc... more wisely.

Those gents are not only the last drops of prestige our eternally corrupted,
but also a bastion of hopes and aspiration, we can build upon!!

New failures like Tiago and Poulsen will not be all that less expensive, we will be forced to replace them with many medium ranked players instead of keeping them for reserves. And the difference from their reduced (by their age) salaries, is not that great from completely incompetent players like Tiago, who gives us no real solution neither extra prestige or aspiration with their presence alone.

It is utter hyppocricy to blame everything on DP's, Camo's and Treze's wages, when we are keepi paying the salaries of Poulsen, Almiron, Zebina, Tiago and co
If we wanted to be efficient and maximize our chances, we should get rid of them first!
But when i blamed Secco for that and pointed out how much this mistakes cost us, "some" people overlooked that, only to back stab DP, Treze and Camo now, because they face injuries, imagine if they werent the first score-men and assist-men, not so long time ago...

If im not mistaken DP and Treze are ready or have already accepted lesser salaires for the years to come. And dont forget that a huge part of their salaries are tied to sponsorship.
We will lose a great deal of income if we lose our last stars and the income related to them.
Players like Tiago and Almiron never made an income to our club and we have yet managed to offload them!

I was looking for solution and reduced salaries for some of them + getting rid of some of them (like Zebina and Canna) was part of my solution.
You're not really giving a solution here and what you gave is the same as my solution.

I say we gradually get rid of all of them (through sales, retirements etc). In 2011 Ale's, Camo's and Trez's contract will expire.
What do you suggest we do with a 37, 35 and 34 year olds for which we now pay 24m eur (first time I hear from you about sponsors paying their wages)?
If they all want to retire, we'll be left with a HUGE problem because we'll need to buy lots of players in one single transfer window. If they want to stay, do we offer them new contracts, reduced, so we'll pay 15m instead of 24 million?

You do follow what's happening to Milan who still can't get rid of the wages of the +33 year olds? Where Kaladze, Inzaghi, Cafu, Dida, Serginho, Seedorf, Maldini, Favalli etc were getting 3-4 million a year.
They ended up selling Kaka, probably sell Pato, and use only a small part of the gained money on the transfer market.

If we wait, doing nothing, we will hit an even bigger rock in 2011. God knows that Camo and Trez are my favorite players in Juventus, but we'll make a mistake if we don't get rid of at least one of them next summer and the other one in 2011.
By then players like Zebina, Cannavaro, Legrottaglie, Salihamidzic, maybe even Del Piero, will also leave. If we manage to sell them, Tiago, Poulsen, Almiron will leave too, maybe Grosso.
In a year and a half we'll find ourselves without 3/4 of our current team.

Well, unless we offer these oldies new contracts and risk ending up like Milan.

In the summer of 2010 a tough decision will have to be made. Some of the legends will have to leave, others will take a wage cut.
If that won't happen you can be sure that later we'll be ass fucked.

 

[Azzurri7]

Sooner or later Rab, the Old Guard will leave. A new one will come and like you, we will rebuild our emotions with new idols and legends. This is the way it is, our guard is getting older man, no one wants to see them go but the fact is they can't play forever.

:depressed I know