The NHL Thread (23 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bjerknes
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I don't like the way Crosby bitches and moans either, but over time he'll mature.
At this point, all that matters is what the guys in the locker room think; from what I've heard, they're pretty much, to a man, behind Crosby. If he wasn't a solid leader, they wouldn't have gone to back to back finals. You could say it was a publicity stunt to give Cros the captaincy, but the fans liked it - which is important, and the results have been positive. Given the outcome, you can't exactly say that it was a mistake. There's no guarantee that things would have worked out better if an alternative situation had been introduced, and as for the team results, well, they've been well beyond expectation.
The Crosby hype really kills me too buddy, but you've got the added disgust because of the Finals match ups the last couple of season. Detroit is a much better "team" then the Pens top to bottom, and I can understand your pain.
No projections about future status here, but I'm going to say one thing because it's true, and because you're very familiar with the man: Steve Yzerman was not a quality two way player until his career was well underway. Yzerman (who is in fact my favorite non Boston Bruins NHL player of all time) was all about offense early on.
Oh give me a break. Are you seriously saying Malkin and Crosby played well defensively during the finals? The Bitch didn't even have a positive +/- during the finals. The guy had a +9 throughout the playoffs, but Malkin had only a +3 while Hank had +13 and Cleary had a +17. Crosby and Malkin had the most points during the playoffs, 31 and 36 points respectively, which is great, but having only a +3 and a +9 between them DOES NOT constitute good defensive play. That's what the stats tell us.
By watching them play, one could easily see they were not adding much defensively. How many times did Crosby pull a takeaway in his own zone or in center ice? I didn't see it. Hank did a great job of shutting him down and outplaying him, but we probably should have attacked that line more than we did.
Take your "conspiracy theories" about Crosby and hit the road, Jack.
On +/- (generally speaking)...
+/- is not necessarily a great indicator of what makes a fantastic player, and some very good two way players can end up with fairly poor +/-. Please note that I say this despite the fact that a good portion of the top 5-10 +/- players in the league this year play on my team - BOSTON, BABY.
Plus minus is usually a better indication of team play, because last I checked, each team has 6 guys on the ice most of the time.
Look at the defense that the Red Wings have. Look at the goalie. Look at the balance over 4 lines, etc. - There are a TON of variables that go into +/-, and the reasons why a guy like Datsyuk is consistently over +30 have a lot to do with the men he plays with, the general team system, and the way that Babcock specifically utilizes him (I do consider Pavel to be the best two way player in the game today).
When guys like Crosby and Malkin have low +/-numbers, it isn't just about their unperfected defensive qualities - and they certainly have a lot to work on defensively.
How many minutes do they play? What type of on ice situations are occurring during those minutes? Who are their line-mates (look at the wingers that the Pens top two players had before the late season acquisitions - it was a complete joke)? You have to look at the balance of the team (especially the 3rd and 4th lines - a lot of teams have 2 decent lines), look at the defense, goaltending, etc.
When you hear coaches talking about overrated statistics, +/- is frequently at the top of that list. Cause if you're a top player for a shit team, you're getting a ton of minutes, and even if you're a great two way forward, those +/- numbers aren't going to be particularly good.
I hate to say it, but Pittsburgh isn't a balanced team. You remove one of those superstars, and they're definitely a 6,7,8 type of team right now... IMO... this isn't science, here.
If you're a Pittsburgh Penguins fan, Mario is God. I don't have to explain that to you, Aaron. The best player you've ever had, has almost singlehandedly saved your franchise, and is the mentor to the most important player on your team (all due respect to Malkin's production, but this was basically the first year he was even able to communicate with most of his teammates in English).
You owe Mario a hand(job), at the very least.
At this point, all that matters is what the guys in the locker room think; from what I've heard, they're pretty much, to a man, behind Crosby. If he wasn't a solid leader, they wouldn't have gone to back to back finals. You could say it was a publicity stunt to give Cros the captaincy, but the fans liked it - which is important, and the results have been positive. Given the outcome, you can't exactly say that it was a mistake. There's no guarantee that things would have worked out better if an alternative situation had been introduced, and as for the team results, well, they've been well beyond expectation.
The Crosby hype really kills me too buddy, but you've got the added disgust because of the Finals match ups the last couple of season. Detroit is a much better "team" then the Pens top to bottom, and I can understand your pain.
No projections about future status here, but I'm going to say one thing because it's true, and because you're very familiar with the man: Steve Yzerman was not a quality two way player until his career was well underway. Yzerman (who is in fact my favorite non Boston Bruins NHL player of all time) was all about offense early on.
Oh give me a break. Are you seriously saying Malkin and Crosby played well defensively during the finals? The Bitch didn't even have a positive +/- during the finals. The guy had a +9 throughout the playoffs, but Malkin had only a +3 while Hank had +13 and Cleary had a +17. Crosby and Malkin had the most points during the playoffs, 31 and 36 points respectively, which is great, but having only a +3 and a +9 between them DOES NOT constitute good defensive play. That's what the stats tell us.
By watching them play, one could easily see they were not adding much defensively. How many times did Crosby pull a takeaway in his own zone or in center ice? I didn't see it. Hank did a great job of shutting him down and outplaying him, but we probably should have attacked that line more than we did.
Take your "conspiracy theories" about Crosby and hit the road, Jack.
+/- is not necessarily a great indicator of what makes a fantastic player, and some very good two way players can end up with fairly poor +/-. Please note that I say this despite the fact that a good portion of the top 5-10 +/- players in the league this year play on my team - BOSTON, BABY.
Plus minus is usually a better indication of team play, because last I checked, each team has 6 guys on the ice most of the time.
Look at the defense that the Red Wings have. Look at the goalie. Look at the balance over 4 lines, etc. - There are a TON of variables that go into +/-, and the reasons why a guy like Datsyuk is consistently over +30 have a lot to do with the men he plays with, the general team system, and the way that Babcock specifically utilizes him (I do consider Pavel to be the best two way player in the game today).
When guys like Crosby and Malkin have low +/-numbers, it isn't just about their unperfected defensive qualities - and they certainly have a lot to work on defensively.
How many minutes do they play? What type of on ice situations are occurring during those minutes? Who are their line-mates (look at the wingers that the Pens top two players had before the late season acquisitions - it was a complete joke)? You have to look at the balance of the team (especially the 3rd and 4th lines - a lot of teams have 2 decent lines), look at the defense, goaltending, etc.
When you hear coaches talking about overrated statistics, +/- is frequently at the top of that list. Cause if you're a top player for a shit team, you're getting a ton of minutes, and even if you're a great two way forward, those +/- numbers aren't going to be particularly good.
I hate to say it, but Pittsburgh isn't a balanced team. You remove one of those superstars, and they're definitely a 6,7,8 type of team right now... IMO... this isn't science, here.
If you're a Pittsburgh Penguins fan, Mario is God. I don't have to explain that to you, Aaron. The best player you've ever had, has almost singlehandedly saved your franchise, and is the mentor to the most important player on your team (all due respect to Malkin's production, but this was basically the first year he was even able to communicate with most of his teammates in English).
You owe Mario a hand(job), at the very least.
Perry Pearn as our ass-coach? 
I want a f*ckin' ex-defenseman to coach our defense. Not another Jacques Martin friend.
Groulx as our Goalie coach?
Seriously, Groulx? The guy was a freakin' video guy and Marcoux was still available. Marcoux was an expert on the mental aspect of the game for goalies. THAT'S what Price needed.
I want a f*ckin' ex-defenseman to coach our defense. Not another Jacques Martin friend.
Groulx as our Goalie coach?
Seriously, Groulx? The guy was a freakin' video guy and Marcoux was still available. Marcoux was an expert on the mental aspect of the game for goalies. THAT'S what Price needed.
Perry Pearn as our ass-coach?
Groulx as our Goalie coach?
Seriously, Groulx? The guy was a freakin' video guy and Marcoux was still available. Marcoux was an expert on the mental aspect of the game for goalies. THAT'S what Price needed.
Groulx as our Goalie coach?
Seriously, Groulx? The guy was a freakin' video guy and Marcoux was still available. Marcoux was an expert on the mental aspect of the game for goalies. THAT'S what Price needed.
I would have preferred Marcoux as well, but I guess anyone is better than Melanson
It's no doubt it was a publicity stunt.
I don't care how great of a player you are, someone that young doesn't deserve to be captain. It's basically disrespect.
The only reason why he was awarded the captaincy is because he's Sidney Crosby. Fact. It has nothing to do about what team I support.
That's true, but I haven't seen Crosby improve greatly in the defensive aspects of the game.
I wasn't alive when Yzerman started playing, but from what other fans say who were, he wasn't bad defensively when he first started playing for the Wings.
Notice I wasn't just using +/- to evaluate Crosby.
I'm not sure how one can say that +/- doesn't reveal some truth behind the defensive displays by some players. Yes, one should realize that there are indeed six men out there on the ice on your team, but generally Crosby plays with the top defensive unit and players around him anyway. And considering he's a center, he has a lot of defensive responsibilities that he must tend to.
It's about putting things into perspective. Crosby and Malkin had the most points during the playoffs, but their +/-'s were extremely low for those points tallied. Sure, maybe you can blame that on their teammates, but one expects them to have a better +/-. That means their lines must give up a lot of goals just by using simple mathematics, IMO.
Another interesting statistic is that Crosby and Malkin and second and third in the league in giveaways, but that's because they take a lot of risks with the puck.
I don't care how great of a player you are, someone that young doesn't deserve to be captain. It's basically disrespect.
The only reason why he was awarded the captaincy is because he's Sidney Crosby. Fact. It has nothing to do about what team I support.
That's true, but I haven't seen Crosby improve greatly in the defensive aspects of the game.
I wasn't alive when Yzerman started playing, but from what other fans say who were, he wasn't bad defensively when he first started playing for the Wings.
Notice I wasn't just using +/- to evaluate Crosby.
I'm not sure how one can say that +/- doesn't reveal some truth behind the defensive displays by some players. Yes, one should realize that there are indeed six men out there on the ice on your team, but generally Crosby plays with the top defensive unit and players around him anyway. And considering he's a center, he has a lot of defensive responsibilities that he must tend to.
It's about putting things into perspective. Crosby and Malkin had the most points during the playoffs, but their +/-'s were extremely low for those points tallied. Sure, maybe you can blame that on their teammates, but one expects them to have a better +/-. That means their lines must give up a lot of goals just by using simple mathematics, IMO.
Another interesting statistic is that Crosby and Malkin and second and third in the league in giveaways, but that's because they take a lot of risks with the puck.