Praying to god for Juve (13 Viewers)

rounder

Blindman
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#81
Well, to clear this up. I didn't intend Eric Sawyer's quote to be my own. I guess I forgot to name the source although I was almost sure I did.


The reactions on ahmed and Bes were priceless though. It's nice to know I've made some eternal enemies here at Juventuz :lol:

Fucking losers..
 

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rounder

Blindman
Jun 13, 2007
7,233
#82
No offense but you're running in circles here. On one hand you agree that no child is born with sin but yet you say that they're not immune from the original sin. It doesn't add up to me.

My parents could have been murderers and by their actions my name could have been dirtied but we would all agree that I wouldn't be guilty of anything just by being their child.
Why the confusion?

If a child dies at birth, he/she will go to heaven. However, when this child continues to lead a normal life, he/she will inevitably suffer from the original sin. The child will suffer from it but will not be guilty of it. I don't understand how these statements in any way contradict each other.


Consider this example. An innocent boy's father is a mass murderer; his father is caught by the police and as a result the son lives his entire life in sadness because he lost his father, and even guilt from his father's actions. This boy turns out to be a respected member of his community, he rarely sins. After his death he goes to heaven. Now, although he pays for his father's faults, he is not considered guilty.
 

Ahmed

Principino
Sep 3, 2006
47,928
#83
Well, to clear this up. I didn't intend Eric Sawyer's quote to be my own. I guess I forgot to name the source although I was almost sure I did.


The reactions on ahmed and Bes were priceless though. It's nice to know I've made some eternal enemies here at Juventuz :lol:

Fucking losers..
Please, you're not significant enough in anyone's life to be made an "eternal enemy"...it's just the fact that you don't know what the hell you're talking about whenever you try to make an intellectual post...
 

*aca*

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2002
869
#84
Carl Sagan wrote extensively on praying and healing powers of prayers and misc holly objects & sites (among other things) in his book "Demon Haunted World - Science as a Candle in the Dark.

This is from the book:

In 1858, an apparition of the Virgin Mary was reported in Lourdes,
France; the Mother of God confirmed the dogma of her immaculate
conception which had been proclaimed by Pope Pius IX just four
years earlier. Something like a hundred million people have come
Lourdes since then in the hope of being cured, many with illnesses
that the medicine of the time was helpless to defeat. The Roman Catholic Church rejected the authenticity of large numbers of
claimed miraculous cures, accepting only 65 in nearly a century and a
half (of tumors, tuberculosis, opthalmitis, impetigo, bronchitis, paralysis
and other diseases, but not, say, the regeneration of a limb or a severed
spinal cord). Of the 65, women outnumber men ten to one. The
odds of a miraculous cure at Lourdes, then, are about one in a million;
you are roughly as likely to recover after visiting Lourdes as you are to
win the lottery, or to die in the crash of a regularly scheduled airplane
flight—including the one taking you to Lourdes.

The spontaneous remission rate of all cancers, lumped together, is
estimated to be something between one in ten thousand and one in a
hundred thousand. If no more than 5 percent of those who come to
Lourdes were there to treat their cancers, there should have been
something between 50 and 500 "miraculous" cures of cancer alone.
Since only three of the attested 65 cures are of cancer, the rate of spontaneous
remission at Lourdes seems to be lower than if the victims had
just stayed at home.Of course, if you're one of the 65, it's going to be
very hard to convince you that your trip to Lourdes wasn't the cause of
the remission of your disease. . . Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Something
similar seems true of individual faith healers.
After hearing much from his patients about alleged faith healing,
a Minnesota physician named William Nolen spent a year and a half
trying to track down the most striking cases. Was there clear medical
evidence that the disease was really present before the "cure"? If so,
had the disease actually disappeared after the cure, or did we just
have the healer's or the patient's say-so? He uncovered many cases of
fraud, including the first exposure in America of "psychic surgery." But
he found not one instance of cure of any serious organic (nonpsychogenic)
disease. There were no cases where gallstones or
rheumatoid arthritis, say, were cured, much less cancer or cardiovascular
disease. When a child's spleen is ruptured, Nolen noted, perform
a simple surgical operation and the child is completely better.
But take that child to a faith healer and she's dead in a day. Dr. Nolen's
conclusion:
"When [faith] healers treat serious organic disease, they are responsible
for untold anguish and unhappiness. . . The healers become
killers."
Even a recent book advocating the efficacy of prayer in treating disease
(Larry Dossey, Healing Words) is troubled by the fact that some
diseases are more easily cured or mitigated than others. If prayer
works, why can't God cure cancer or grow back a severed limb? Why
so much avoidable suffering that God could so readily prevent? Why
does God have to be prayed to at all? Doesn't He already know what
cures need to be performed? Dossey also begins with a quote from
Stanley Krippner, M.D. (described as "one of the most authoritative
investigators of the variety of unorthodox healing methods used
around the world"):
The research data on distant, prayer-based healing are promising,
but too sparse to allow any firm conclusion to be drawn.

This after many trillions of prayers over the millennia.
 

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
Jul 16, 2002
11,481
#86
No, I don't believe that. I don't believe that I should be paying for someone else's sin and I believe that all children are born innocent.

What happens if a child dies at birth? Does he go to hell? :confused:
purgatory

It is said that humans are greedy and selfish, and generally noone would argue with that. But what a perfect case study.

Let's go over the facts, shall we? Two teams are out there on the pitch. Two sets of fans are sitting on the couch at home. There is only one winner. If my team wins, that automatically means the rival fans are on the losing side.

And so I pray to god. Please, god, make my team win, help them win. Give them the strength they need and the will to do it. I will be so grateful if you do. This means so much to me.

Imagine that you're a parent and you have two kids. They are playing chess. One kid whispers in your ear. "Please mom/dad, help me win this game. Do something to help me, and you can do it so that my brother won't know it was you." What do you say to this? Most parents I know would say "look son, I can't do that, it would be unfair to your brother. I love you both and I can't take sides. I can help you, but not at his expense."

Praying for your team to win is unethical. You want god to help make you happy and make someone else unhappy in the process. How can you possibly justify such selfishness and greed?
I am not getting tied up with this, but I think people who pray for their team to win, and for God to grant that request is pretty ridiculous.....
 
Nov 1, 2008
6
#88
when you post someone's else opinion, the least you can do is give credit

http://metrostateatheists.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/epicurus-the-problem-of-evil/

unless you are R. Eric Sawyer?

i'll reply to this, probably tomorrow.

edit again: maybe today :D

You have a painful disease. Your body is rotting and the pain is driving you to madness. I hold the cure. I could give it to you. I decide to wait for 3 months. Then i administer the medicine and pain disappear

You might call that "good" - i call that sadistic.

it goes against the idea of god as omnipotent. If this is to be valid, god is temporal and not omniwhatever.
You should especially give credit when you take from a wordpress blog, becuase when someone sharp like *aca* catches you being intellectually dishonest and links back to the source, worpress lets you know.

Chalmer, VP
Metro State Atheists
 

*aca*

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2002
869
#90
You should especially give credit when you take from a wordpress blog, becuase when someone sharp like *aca* catches you being intellectually dishonest and links back to the source, worpress lets you know.

Chalmer, VP
Metro State Atheists
Hi Chalmer,

Just saying cheers :)

aca
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
#91
Why the confusion?

If a child dies at birth, he/she will go to heaven. However, when this child continues to lead a normal life, he/she will inevitably suffer from the original sin. The child will suffer from it but will not be guilty of it. I don't understand how these statements in any way contradict each other.


Consider this example. An innocent boy's father is a mass murderer; his father is caught by the police and as a result the son lives his entire life in sadness because he lost his father, and even guilt from his father's actions. This boy turns out to be a respected member of his community, he rarely sins. After his death he goes to heaven. Now, although he pays for his father's faults, he is not considered guilty.
The difference is that Christ died for those sins for me.
 

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
Jul 16, 2002
11,481
#92
You should especially give credit when you take from a wordpress blog, becuase when someone sharp like *aca* catches you being intellectually dishonest and links back to the source, worpress lets you know.

Chalmer, VP
Metro State Atheists
is this for real ??
 

*aca*

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2002
869
#95
Yes, it is. Basically, when someone hits a link that leads to my blog, it tells me where it was linked at. So I clicked, read the forum, and signed up.

once you are a member, i have to warn you not to believe a word these guys here say about football (soccer) and their team Juventus.

Don't trust the dark side :lol:
 
Nov 1, 2008
6
#98
it seems so to me :D

Not attributing the sources is the greatest "sin" in the secular/scientific community ;)
There is actually a community of college professors who keep an extensive list of any and every student that has been caught doing this sort of thing. They even have a news letter. If they catch you trying to get into graduate school they write a letter/petition urging them not to accept you.
 
OP
Martin

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #100
    There is actually a community of college professors who keep an extensive list of any and every student that has been caught doing this sort of thing. They even have a news letter. If they catch you trying to get into graduate school they write a letter/petition urging them not to accept you.
    With respect, mr. metro, that sounds utterly idiotic. This is an open forum, there are no rules for intellectual honesty anyone has to play by. The fact that someone should use this as dirt to prevent someone else to get into an institution where such formal rules do exist is sickening.
     

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