Praying to god for Juve (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Martin
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Yes, that is my conviction and thank you for articulating it. Now to business..
Btw selfish and immoral are not the same thing, not even close. So there is no fault in selfishness as long as it's moral.
"Not meant to be"? Okay, I see what you're saying "God, please arrange it so that I have 100 bucks on my desk tomorrow. I don't care how you do it and I don't wanna know, just make it happen." Is this what you have in mind? A kind of willful ignorance of how it happens so that you can feel guilt free?
Every sport is a zero sum game, one wins at the expense of another. There is no doubt what the possible outcomes are and there is no way you can plead ignorant to the consequences. When you ask god to cheat for you, you know full well that you're doing this at the expense of someone. It hardly gets more clear cut than this.
This is very different from praying to heal the sick. Religion says "love thy neighbor as thy self", it does not say "love thy bacteria as thy self", so screw the bacteria, we don't feel guilty about getting god to cheat for us at the expense of another organism.
I didn't say God is selfish and immoral, I said you are.
Btw selfish and immoral are not the same thing, not even close. So there is no fault in selfishness as long as it's moral.
"Not meant to be"? Okay, I see what you're saying "God, please arrange it so that I have 100 bucks on my desk tomorrow. I don't care how you do it and I don't wanna know, just make it happen." Is this what you have in mind? A kind of willful ignorance of how it happens so that you can feel guilt free?
Every sport is a zero sum game, one wins at the expense of another. There is no doubt what the possible outcomes are and there is no way you can plead ignorant to the consequences. When you ask god to cheat for you, you know full well that you're doing this at the expense of someone. It hardly gets more clear cut than this.
This is very different from praying to heal the sick. Religion says "love thy neighbor as thy self", it does not say "love thy bacteria as thy self", so screw the bacteria, we don't feel guilty about getting god to cheat for us at the expense of another organism.
I didn't say God is selfish and immoral, I said you are.
Agreed, selfishness isn't a bad attribute - It depends on the context of such selfish act.
Isn't what you're saying a bit like the Atheist argument who says, "Well if God exists I want him to make me levitate in mid-air...."
When I said "meant to be" I was trying to explain this (again from a Muslim perspective...since that's my religious belief) -
Wiki:
Type I: Du'a al-mas'alah, or the 'du'a of asking.' This type of du'a is when one asks for the fulfillment of a need, or that some harm be removed from him. An example would be when a person asks, "O God! Grant me good in this world, and good in the next life!"
Type II: Du'a al-ibadah, or the 'du'a of worship.' This type of du'a represents a very broad concept. In Islam, every single act of worship includes this type of du'a. Examples would include when a Muslim prays salat or gives zakaat or fasts.
(Duaa' in Arabic means to summon)
It's not "cheating". This prayer is like a form of hope. I think it's a more of a psycholigical attribute, than a spiritual one (i.e. asking God to "cheat"). Apparently WC 2002 opener Senegal 1-0 France was the result of this African black magic. Did you see the BBC documentary? Some witch doctor actually did some voodoo magic on a Zidane shirt so he could flop miserably
Whether the consequences were a result of this magic, we will never know...
Are you serious? I'm taking anti-biotics coz I have the flu thanks to some bacteria I must've picked up (3 people in my office had it this week as well!). So that makes me selfish, since I want to cure myself at the expense of these "harmful" bacteria in my throat, and sinus?
Do you also want to debate the presupposition of what humans deem as "harmful"? i.e. Bacteria finds its host to survive...but its host tries its best to kick it out. What a fucked up host!! Hmmm
Isn't what you're saying a bit like the Atheist argument who says, "Well if God exists I want him to make me levitate in mid-air...."
When I said "meant to be" I was trying to explain this (again from a Muslim perspective...since that's my religious belief) -
Wiki:
Type I: Du'a al-mas'alah, or the 'du'a of asking.' This type of du'a is when one asks for the fulfillment of a need, or that some harm be removed from him. An example would be when a person asks, "O God! Grant me good in this world, and good in the next life!"
Type II: Du'a al-ibadah, or the 'du'a of worship.' This type of du'a represents a very broad concept. In Islam, every single act of worship includes this type of du'a. Examples would include when a Muslim prays salat or gives zakaat or fasts.
(Duaa' in Arabic means to summon)
It's not "cheating". This prayer is like a form of hope. I think it's a more of a psycholigical attribute, than a spiritual one (i.e. asking God to "cheat"). Apparently WC 2002 opener Senegal 1-0 France was the result of this African black magic. Did you see the BBC documentary? Some witch doctor actually did some voodoo magic on a Zidane shirt so he could flop miserably
Whether the consequences were a result of this magic, we will never know... Are you serious? I'm taking anti-biotics coz I have the flu thanks to some bacteria I must've picked up (3 people in my office had it this week as well!). So that makes me selfish, since I want to cure myself at the expense of these "harmful" bacteria in my throat, and sinus?
Do you also want to debate the presupposition of what humans deem as "harmful"? i.e. Bacteria finds its host to survive...but its host tries its best to kick it out. What a fucked up host!! Hmmm
I don't get it, what are you trying to say?
See, I don't buy that. Because the fact is that you do believe that you can make requests to the creator of the universe and that he could, if he wanted to, help you at the expense of others. Now you can say that it's more like hope, because prayers aren't answered anyway and even if they were you could never prove that it was the prayer that did it. But if that's the case, then why pray? Why not just say "gee, I hope". There's a difference between appealing to your own sense of optimism and appealing to god's power to play on your team.
Are you saying that if it was between you and some other guy to pass an exam and get a job/house/whatever and only one guy could win, and God actually came and told you "I screwed up the other guy to help you, I messed with his memory so he would write down the wrong answers", are you saying that you would react "no, you shouldn't have done that, that's not what I meant!!!". Of course that's what you meant, why else would you pray? Maybe not directly malicious, but I bet if the other guy just "happened" to be unlucky or "happened" to have an off day, you wouldn't mind at all, would you?
I mean of course you could pray for things like "please don't make me oversleep for my big exam" and that's hardly malignant, but ultimately people enjoy praying for things outside their reach, things they don't have, things they don't necessarily deserve, pray for favors. And that's not exactly moral.
I said we don't care about the bacteria, we don't feel guilty for screwing them over with anti biotics.
It's not "cheating". This prayer is like a form of hope. I think it's a more of a psycholigical attribute, than a spiritual one (i.e. asking God to "cheat"). Apparently WC 2002 opener Senegal 1-0 France was the result of this African black magic. Did you see the BBC documentary? Some witch doctor actually did some voodoo magic on a Zidane shirt so he could flop miserably Whether the consequences were a result of this magic, we will never know...
Whether the consequences were a result of this magic, we will never know...
Are you saying that if it was between you and some other guy to pass an exam and get a job/house/whatever and only one guy could win, and God actually came and told you "I screwed up the other guy to help you, I messed with his memory so he would write down the wrong answers", are you saying that you would react "no, you shouldn't have done that, that's not what I meant!!!". Of course that's what you meant, why else would you pray? Maybe not directly malicious, but I bet if the other guy just "happened" to be unlucky or "happened" to have an off day, you wouldn't mind at all, would you?
I mean of course you could pray for things like "please don't make me oversleep for my big exam" and that's hardly malignant, but ultimately people enjoy praying for things outside their reach, things they don't have, things they don't necessarily deserve, pray for favors. And that's not exactly moral.
Are you serious? I'm taking anti-biotics coz I have the flu thanks to some bacteria I must've picked up (3 people in my office had it this week as well!). So that makes me selfish, since I want to cure myself at the expense of these "harmful" bacteria in my throat, and sinus?
Do you also want to debate the presupposition of what humans deem as "harmful"? i.e. Bacteria finds its host to survive...but its host tries its best to kick it out. What a fucked up host!! Hmmm
Do you also want to debate the presupposition of what humans deem as "harmful"? i.e. Bacteria finds its host to survive...but its host tries its best to kick it out. What a fucked up host!! Hmmm
I still disagree with the notion of prayer = cheating.
Selfish, yes (and not in a bad way). But cheating?
When you ask God for the strength to pass your final exam; there's obviously no such thing as a spiritual magic that will suddenly make you an Einstein for 2 hours, ace the test, and leave.
It's up to YOU YOURSELF, your efforts, your preparation, your concentration, your intelligence, your confidence/self esteem, your health (perhaps?) and your faith etc. which will give you an edge in the exam (at the expense of others).
By the way, you keep saying at the expense of others - isn't that the way the world works? When I sit in the exam room, isn't my aim to do better than the persons sitting next to me? When I'm at work in the office, working my ass off, aren't I looking forward to next year's appraisal, so I can get promoted + raise and recognition for achieving a yearly target?
I'm not saying it's 100% dog-eat-dog every man, woman, and dog for themselves; there is something called cooperation, team-work, networking, relationship building etc. people help each other succeed as well (to a certain extent, back-stabbing is common lol)
My point being, when I'm praying to God to succeed in something, it doesn't mean I'm hoping someone else get's screwed over. It's not supposed to be a malevolent intention.
I don't hope Torino players fall ill, so we can thrash them 10-0 this weekend. I hope we kick their asses, and that Juve will be prepared. If we lose, I won't blame God. Most certainly, Ranieri and Molinaro...
Selfish, yes (and not in a bad way). But cheating?
When you ask God for the strength to pass your final exam; there's obviously no such thing as a spiritual magic that will suddenly make you an Einstein for 2 hours, ace the test, and leave.
It's up to YOU YOURSELF, your efforts, your preparation, your concentration, your intelligence, your confidence/self esteem, your health (perhaps?) and your faith etc. which will give you an edge in the exam (at the expense of others).
By the way, you keep saying at the expense of others - isn't that the way the world works? When I sit in the exam room, isn't my aim to do better than the persons sitting next to me? When I'm at work in the office, working my ass off, aren't I looking forward to next year's appraisal, so I can get promoted + raise and recognition for achieving a yearly target?
I'm not saying it's 100% dog-eat-dog every man, woman, and dog for themselves; there is something called cooperation, team-work, networking, relationship building etc. people help each other succeed as well (to a certain extent, back-stabbing is common lol)
My point being, when I'm praying to God to succeed in something, it doesn't mean I'm hoping someone else get's screwed over. It's not supposed to be a malevolent intention.
I don't hope Torino players fall ill, so we can thrash them 10-0 this weekend. I hope we kick their asses, and that Juve will be prepared. If we lose, I won't blame God. Most certainly, Ranieri and Molinaro...
So to boil it down.. what you're really saying is that a praying person is someone with performance anxiety, someone who's afraid he's not gonna deliver under pressure. And what he's praying for therefore, is a little help to perform as well as he's able to.
So to take a completely random example. Jose Mourinho would have no need for prayer because he's never doubted his own ability ever, yes?
I don't think your rendition of this is a true general representation though. Maybe you or your culture is modest in prayer, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case across the board. The most obvious example is people fighting a war with "religion on their side". In the old barbaric Europe basically everyone had god with them all the time, and I dare say it wasn't the kind of modest prayer you're describing. And even today, there's lots of people with bad blood who say things like "I wish *insert someone I don't like* would keel over and die", so it's not a very big stretch to imagine this enters into prayers as well.
So to take a completely random example. Jose Mourinho would have no need for prayer because he's never doubted his own ability ever, yes?
I don't think your rendition of this is a true general representation though. Maybe you or your culture is modest in prayer, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case across the board. The most obvious example is people fighting a war with "religion on their side". In the old barbaric Europe basically everyone had god with them all the time, and I dare say it wasn't the kind of modest prayer you're describing. And even today, there's lots of people with bad blood who say things like "I wish *insert someone I don't like* would keel over and die", so it's not a very big stretch to imagine this enters into prayers as well.
