Praying to god for Juve (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Martin
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Figuratively speaking, man was tempted by the devil. (Adam and Eve story).
From then on god has enforced eternal suffering on mankind. Women will always undergo excrutiating pain in pregnancy, while man will always have to suffer greatly to be able to put the food on the table.
In a sense, man has betrayed god; this evilness is not from god himself but from the devil. The suffering we face now is part of the 'test'. Will we follow the path of god or that of the devil. That's how I interpret it.
From then on god has enforced eternal suffering on mankind. Women will always undergo excrutiating pain in pregnancy, while man will always have to suffer greatly to be able to put the food on the table.
In a sense, man has betrayed god; this evilness is not from god himself but from the devil. The suffering we face now is part of the 'test'. Will we follow the path of god or that of the devil. That's how I interpret it.
But god created the devil, he created hell, he created everything. And more importantly, he created man, so he could easily have created a man who wouldn't "betray" god.
It's like when you catch an ant and put it in a glass jar. And then you prod it with a stick, expose it to a lot of heat, pour water in the jar. All you're doing is tormenting the ant, and you could just as well have given it food and made sure it doesn't suffer.
So that's god, a teenager running around with a glass jar, finding insects to put in it, and tormenting them.
It's like when you catch an ant and put it in a glass jar. And then you prod it with a stick, expose it to a lot of heat, pour water in the jar. All you're doing is tormenting the ant, and you could just as well have given it food and made sure it doesn't suffer.
So that's god, a teenager running around with a glass jar, finding insects to put in it, and tormenting them.
Every human being has a right to pray for anything they want.
But god also has a right to accept/refuse it.
[Actually he's not refuse it, just postpone it]
It depends on how you work on it.
The more you work hard, the more you get what you want.
It's not like 'god, give me $ 1 million dollar on my table tommorrow'
there'
No man, you can't play magic here.
It is like 'Ora et Labora' (work hard and pray hard).
Islam *almost* have the same perspective, called Ikhtiar and Tawwakal.
Still, the decision is in god's hand.
That's what we called destiny.
We have to accept it no matter what.
But god also has a right to accept/refuse it.
[Actually he's not refuse it, just postpone it]
It depends on how you work on it.
The more you work hard, the more you get what you want.
It's not like 'god, give me $ 1 million dollar on my table tommorrow'
there'
No man, you can't play magic here.
It is like 'Ora et Labora' (work hard and pray hard).
Islam *almost* have the same perspective, called Ikhtiar and Tawwakal.
Still, the decision is in god's hand.
That's what we called destiny.
We have to accept it no matter what.
It does seem unfair and unjust.
Christ died for man's sins, this does not diminish the ancestral sin.
No, I love the other comparison, god is a child with a magnifying glass tormenting the ants.
You reason that god's divine power surely must have been sufficient to create a a world free from sins. This is true, this was god's intention. You make it seem like it's god that is torturing man on purpose, this is not the case.
God did not create the devil. Lucifer was an angel of god that rejected the certain amount of power given to him by god and wanted to be above god. The iniquity found in Lucifer was not created by god but rather created by Lucifer himself.
Why didn't god just destroy Satan?
Because sin had entered the world, and into the very nature of man through Adams transgression, then for God to destroy Satan, he would also have had to destroy the man he loved. .
Christ died for man's sins, this does not diminish the ancestral sin.
No, I love the other comparison, god is a child with a magnifying glass tormenting the ants.
You reason that god's divine power surely must have been sufficient to create a a world free from sins. This is true, this was god's intention. You make it seem like it's god that is torturing man on purpose, this is not the case.
God did not create the devil. Lucifer was an angel of god that rejected the certain amount of power given to him by god and wanted to be above god. The iniquity found in Lucifer was not created by god but rather created by Lucifer himself.
Why didn't god just destroy Satan?
Because sin had entered the world, and into the very nature of man through Adams transgression, then for God to destroy Satan, he would also have had to destroy the man he loved. .
This is impossible. As you said, nothing happens without a cause. Luficer could not have created himself or changed his own soul, there must be a cause behind it. And god is all knowing so he would have known that this would happen.
Either god is all powerful or he is not, stop playing these games where he takes responsibility for some things but not all things.
Either god is all powerful or he is not, stop playing these games where he takes responsibility for some things but not all things.
Couldn't God have known ahead of time that Satan would rebel? Yes, He could have - but, maybe, He chose not to. Almighty God can do, or not do, absolutely anything that He wishes.
Why did God allow choice? Well, using human marriage as an analogy, would you want to be married, forever, to someone who had absolutely no choice in the matter? Or, would you want to be married to someone who personally chose to spend their life with you?
The angels were not created like mindless machines. Biblical accounts of them show that they are individuals with powers of reason. Good angels are capable of patience, joy, compassion, curiosity, and sometimes anger.
God did not force the angels to obey Him. God did not force us humans to obey him; he knows that many of his creation will deny his existence which is precisely why he gave us all free will.
Why did God allow choice? Well, using human marriage as an analogy, would you want to be married, forever, to someone who had absolutely no choice in the matter? Or, would you want to be married to someone who personally chose to spend their life with you?
The angels were not created like mindless machines. Biblical accounts of them show that they are individuals with powers of reason. Good angels are capable of patience, joy, compassion, curiosity, and sometimes anger.
God did not force the angels to obey Him. God did not force us humans to obey him; he knows that many of his creation will deny his existence which is precisely why he gave us all free will.
God could have easilly created a world of sheep that tirelessly obeyed his every command. God wanted a creation that would have faith in him by choice not be force. See the marriage analogy.
Denying god and having the rebelliousness to overthrow him is a chioce he gave to all his angels. Lucifer among others chose to rebel against god. However, your analogy of god is ridiculously inaccurate. You suggest he is evil and is purposefully inflicting pain on his creations, why would he do that?
He simply gave us the gift of freedom. Freedom comes at a hefty price. For us to experience freedom, a world of goodness and pureness would not be possible.
Denying god and having the rebelliousness to overthrow him is a chioce he gave to all his angels. Lucifer among others chose to rebel against god. However, your analogy of god is ridiculously inaccurate. You suggest he is evil and is purposefully inflicting pain on his creations, why would he do that?
He simply gave us the gift of freedom. Freedom comes at a hefty price. For us to experience freedom, a world of goodness and pureness would not be possible.
Allow me.
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"
I already explained why above. I quote myself here.
"Because sin had entered the world, and into the very nature of man through Adams transgression, then for God to destroy Satan, he would also have had to destroy the man he loved".
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"
I already explained why above. I quote myself here.
"Because sin had entered the world, and into the very nature of man through Adams transgression, then for God to destroy Satan, he would also have had to destroy the man he loved".
That's obviously bullshit, because god is god and he could have prevented "sin entering the world". Or he could have sucked the evil out of man if he wanted to, he's god for christ's sake. As for freedom he could have made us "free" to choose any number of good options, and no evil options.
You're trying to make it out as if god is all powerful, but inexplicably imposed a lot of really dumb restrictions upon himself. We humans call this "making excuses".
You're trying to make it out as if god is all powerful, but inexplicably imposed a lot of really dumb restrictions upon himself. We humans call this "making excuses".