'Murica! (65 Viewers)

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
69,339
Problem is that US spends a fortune on public education, it just has no idea how to get that money into actually improving public education. Same deal with health care. It should be easy for America to have universal health care with what it spends (and I’m not talking r&d expenditures here). Democrat solution of just pumping money into the system only works if that money is actually getting to the end point of better education for students. But instead it disappears in a bureaucratic labyrinth along the way, or gets wasted on utter nonsense like hiring insane “anti-racism” consultants and paying for services of crooks like those in the above article who instead of promoting solutions to better education quality and opportunity want to get paid a fortune to suggest just lowering standards and pretending everyone underprivileged gets an A in everything.
The easiest solution which democrats categorically refuse is education vouchers given to parents, let them weed out the incompetent.
 

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Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,845
Too many subjective parameters, what limited access? What's a good income? The facts though are us has the best academia and health care, issues around insurance and education blackholes in democratic dumps are policy issues. But we both know that if you are 18 in the US with a strong desire to succeed you will have an easier time to get there than anyehere else. Poor choices catching up to people is all part of the cost part of liberty i spoke of, it's not for everyone.
That’s just not true anymore though. Upward social mobility in the US has been plummeting for years and is currently the worst in the first world. That’s not to say it’s impossible, but if you come from poverty/lower middle class the opportunity to improve that situation is definitely not easier than anywhere else.

The US has all sorts of points in its favour, and there are a lot of wonderful things about the country, but in current times the impoverished, no matter their desire to succeed are more likely to remain there than most other first world nations.
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
69,339
That’s just not true anymore though. Upward social mobility in the US has been plummeting for years and is currently the worst in the first world. That’s not to say it’s impossible, but if you come from poverty/lower middle class the opportunity to improve that situation is definitely not easier than anywhere else.

The US has all sorts of points in its favour, and there are a lot of wonderful things about the country, but in current times the impoverished, no matter their desire to succeed are more likely to remain there than most other first world nations.
Or it is, the only group bringing stats down are the 13% which are always encouraged by democrats to fail. Just look at nigerian Americans, most educationally successful group, where else is that the case?
 

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,845
The easiest solution which democrats categorically refuse is education vouchers given to parents, let them weed out the incompetent.
Agree 100% with this. And amusingly enough this is a case where most of the evidence and studies supports voucher systems as improving educational quality and outcomes, especially in public schools, contrary to democrat handwringing. Even funnier is that the democrat claim of this leading to racial segregation has been directly refuted by most analyses of this and in most cases it has been shown to do the exact opposite. But woke gonna woke

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Or it is, the only group bringing stats down are the 13% which are always encouraged by democrats to fail. Just look at nigerian Americans, most educationally successful group, where else is that the case?
That group doesn’t help, but even on the whole, including amongst caucasians, upward social mobility is falling, and wealth disparity gap is getting worse and worse by the year.

In general though I don’t think opportunity for advancement is much different in any first world country. It’s just where that advancement comes in to play. US has probably better opportunities to move between middle/upper middle class/wealthy. Other countries have better opportunities to move from lower class into middle class and currently have a much stronger middle class than US through all demographics. The fault for this certainly lies with democrats on some points but also republicans on others. Or perhaps more so on their partisan divide and complete refusal to work together and compromise on anything. It would be nice if we could have some good old-fashioned centrist politicians bringing common sense back into play with regards to policies on how to work on this. There’s definitely a middle ground between outright welfare state and the American system thag can provide a lot of the benefits of both imo.
 
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ALC

Ohaulick
Oct 28, 2010
46,004
It’s fairly easy in the US to make a shitload of money and have a good life if you work hard and smart. I don’t mean in a minimum wage job but service industry here pays amazingly well.

the problem is if you have children at any point or have a serious health issue. Then you’re out of luck.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,441
The world has changed but man hasn't, the adage goes we are 9 meals away from total chaos. As i said US and the idea behind it is not for everyone and i rather worship a document drafted by experience, accumulation of western thought, and liberty than the ramblings of a tenured jagoff whose limp existence gets off on shitting on his historic betters.
Humanity definitely hasn't changed. And you're right about total chaos. Will be interesting what they predict regarding global food supplies this year.

But I'm less confident on making an active citizenship decision purely based on paperwork. South Africa's constitution is only 25 years old and, IMO, seems to be built on an additional 250 years of social lessons and the legacy of more recent abuses than the U.S. constitution. On paper, it arguably looks more sound to me for a modern society. But in practice, South Africa is a great place to visit but living there??

The easiest solution which democrats categorically refuse is education vouchers given to parents, let them weed out the incompetent.
As long as it includes the regional transportation infrastructure to get people to the schools they should choose... which gets us back to 1960s busing again. Crap neighborhoods generally have crap schools that are locally underfunded, and they beget crappier outcomes. Perhaps some of that could be addressed if schools would be funded through state taxes more than local property taxes.
 

Elvin

Senior Member
Nov 25, 2005
36,829
Is this satire? Because the article looks very real.

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That's not entirely true. Most EU citizens just feel like they can go everywhere. Live in the USA for a few years if they want to and then come back. We have people who move to Asia or Africa too. It's just rich people spending money or maybe earning even more money abroad. I don't think it says much about American society.

Think about it, do you really know that many Europeans who go to the US in search of a better life? Poor people who think they may have a better shot of making it big in the USA? Because I don't.
Almist every retired footballer dreams about settling down in the US lol
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
69,339
That group doesn’t help, but even on the whole, including amongst caucasians, upward social mobility is falling, and wealth disparity gap is getting worse and worse by the year.

In general though I don’t think opportunity for advancement is much different in any first world country. It’s just where that advancement comes in to play. US has probably better opportunities to move between middle/upper middle class/wealthy. Other countries have better opportunities to move from lower class into middle class and currently have a much stronger middle class than US through all demographics. The fault for this certainly lies with democrats on some points but also republicans on others. Or perhaps more so on their partisan divide and complete refusal to work together and compromise on anything. It would be nice if we could have some good old-fashioned centrist politicians bringing common sense back into play with regards to policies on how to work on this. There’s definitely a middle ground between outright welfare state and the American system thag can provide a lot of the benefits of both imo.
Agree on the first part, but i still believe with a clean slate you get much better roi in the states than anywhere else, you also get penalized more for wrong choices.


Humanity definitely hasn't changed. And you're right about total chaos. Will be interesting what they predict regarding global food supplies this year.

But I'm less confident on making an active citizenship decision purely based on paperwork. South Africa's constitution is only 25 years old and, IMO, seems to be built on an additional 250 years of social lessons and the legacy of more recent abuses than the U.S. constitution. On paper, it arguably looks more sound to me for a modern society. But in practice, South Africa is a great place to visit but living there??


As long as it includes the regional transportation infrastructure to get people to the schools they should choose... which gets us back to 1960s busing again. Crap neighborhoods generally have crap schools that are locally underfunded, and they beget crappier outcomes. Perhaps some of that could be addressed if schools would be funded through state taxes more than local property taxes.
The paperwork is based the universal concept of freedom which does come with its own level of chaos, but personally i rather deal with the chaos of my choices than those of someone else.

As for schools, vouvhers are not the panacea buta start, and a great start at that.
 

Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,566
So why are they chosing the US when they can live literally anywhere?
Probably because they have shitload of money and they can extend their playing time in the US. Every case is different. But the point is it’s very silly to extend this very limited and very privileged group to all EU residents. I can’t believe you even think of it as an example.

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I recently watched citizen Kane, crazy how similar things were even back then
PBS’ American Experience has a documentary on William Randolph Hearst, who was the inspiration for Charles Foster Kane. It’s pretty good.
 
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alaska

Senior Member
May 25, 2013
1,165
And amusingly enough this is a case where most of the evidence and studies supports voucher systems as improving educational quality and outcomes, especially in public schools, contrary to democrat handwringing.
Teachers unions are incredibly politically powerful entities though, and they are incentivised to resist any education reform.
 

pavelnel

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2006
2,474
The US is the top of every single industry except football lol

If you are the best at smth chances are you live in America. This says a lot.

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And to GET loaded.
This is a blatantly stupid statements. No country can be at the top of every industry. USA is at the top of some industries, among the best in many and a laggard in the rest.
Examples: chip development - the best, chip production not so much; automotive parts - Europe is far ahead; Civil aircraft and helicopters - second best after Europe; Military aircraft, drones and helicopters - at the top; Consumer electronics production - far behind China; Software - top; Automobiles -behind China and EU in numbers and value, in quality definitely behind EU, Japan and even South Korea; motorcycles - far behind EU and Japan; luxury goods - nowhere near EU; quality food - not even in top 10; junk food - top...
I can continue but this is enough...For now.

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Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,566
The US is the top of every single industry except football lol

If you are the best at smth chances are you live in America. This says a lot.

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And to GET loaded.
Btw there’s another reason why a lot of young people with college education do well in the US: no student loan. Many countries have free or cheap college education programs, while attending college costs ~50k a year and student loans have interest rates of ~4%.
Parents do weird things here too make sure their kids can go to college and remain debt free. A guy I know bought 4 years worth of credit hours in Michigan State for his kids shortly after birth, which effectively became a forced pick for the kids. He would’ve lost all that money had they choose to go to a different school.
 

AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
29,615
It’s fairly easy in the US to make a shitload of money and have a good life if you work hard and smart. I don’t mean in a minimum wage job but service industry here pays amazingly well.

the problem is if you have children at any point or have a serious health issue. Then you’re out of luck.
Eh. You could work hard your whole life and only just get by. You could be the hardest worker, pulling 12 hour shifts everyday but unless some hiring manager decides to take a chance on you for example, then you get nowhere.
 

Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,566
This is a blatantly stupid statements. No country can be at the top of every industry. USA is at the top of some industries, among the best in many and a laggard in the rest.
Examples: chip development - the best, chip production not so much; automotive parts - Europe is far ahead; Civil aircraft and helicopters - second best after Europe; Military aircraft, drones and helicopters - at the top; Consumer electronics production - far behind China; Software - top; Automobiles -behind China and EU in numbers and value, in quality definitely behind EU, Japan and even South Korea; motorcycles - far behind EU and Japan; luxury goods - nowhere near EU; quality food - not even in top 10; junk food - top...
I can continue but this is enough...For now.

Изпратено от моят XQ-AU52 с помощта на Tapatalk
Who gives a shit about consumer electronics production? We’re also lagging in sweatshop industry.
 

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