Libya 2011 Demonstrations (4 Viewers)

[Fred]

In my country they bombed hospitals, bridges, schools, even residential buildings.
And that was in my town, i saw it with my own eyes

The Americans did the same in Iraq. But then when they came in Libya, they did nothing of the sort. I'm not surprised at what you say, NATO isn't exactly the most humanitarian institution. I think the difference is, we have a transitional national council, that is representing the Libyan people and that is recognized as a government by several countries, they wouldn't allow NATO to do the same as they did in Serbia. Most of Tripoli is against Gedaffi, that was apparent in the first days of the revolution before he completely suppressed them, if the NATO started bombing residential targets, the revolutionaries will lose support in Tripoli, that would be disastrous to the revolution.

 

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[Fred]

Today I laughed so hard when I read somewhere that Gaddafi wants to make a deal with NATO , I mean after all these

Ya he said he was ready to make elections under international supervision, but under one condition, that there is no tazweer

He really is something

 

[Snoop]

I can't understand how dumb people like him get there to that position. I mean in other countries, dictators go and stay there with power, killing here and there but this one is a bozo, I have watched some of his speeches, he even was laughing on what he was saying, seriously, how Libyans let this clown stay all this long, and specially when his stupid policies with Switzerland and the likes, for his sons idiocy. This is definitely a special case in human history

 

[Dostoevsky]

I would give 5,000 euros to see NATO colapse and never exist anymore

Now imagine us joining NATO instead.

Now that's some funny shit but sadly it's one of the current options.

 

[Fred]

I can't understand how dumb people like him get there to that position. I mean in other countries, dictators go and stay there with power, killing here and there but this one is a bozo, I have watched some of his speeches, he even was laughing on what he was saying, seriously, how Libyans let this clown stay all this long, and specially when his stupid policies with Switzerland and the likes, for his sons idiocy. This is definitely a special case in human history

Ya, the Swiss were pussies in that story , if i were them i'd never let Gedaffi's stupid son go. As for Gedaffi he does look stupid, and he might actually really be stupid, but the guy is as sly as a fox too.

Now imagine us joining NATO instead.

Now that's some funny shit but sadly it's one of the current options.

Some day when you're free i want you to tell me the whole story from your point of view about Yugoslavia and how and why it got split up and what exactly you think of it. In a PM of course because i realize how sensitive this whole issue is.

 

[Alen]

Some day when you're free i want you to tell me the whole story from your point of view about Yugoslavia and how and why it got split up and what exactly you think of it. In a PM of course because i realize how sensitive this whole issue is.

That's easy.
The end of Cold War+The collapse of USSR = No need for Yugoslavia

The Tehran Conference in '43 and the deal between Churchill and Stalin left Yugoslavia as the only 50-50 European country. Due to it's strategic importance both blocks wanted it and neither wanted to leave it to the other side. So while certain countries entered the Warsaw Pact and the others were in NATO, Yugoslavia had to stay out of both, because neither the westerners would have allowed the Soviets to take full control of Yug, nor would the Soviets allow the west to take full control.
That resulted with big investments (especially in the army) from both blocks in order to prevent the other block taking over Yugoslavia.

Now, 1990's come, Berlin wall fell, break of USSR....what do we do now? Shall we leave this big and pretty strong country exist and fear that in the future the same situation will happen and we'll fight for it again, or shall we break it down to 5-6 small countries that won't present danger to anyone?

The Super Powers never solve a problem entirely. It's of no use for them to do it. They deliberately leave small fire, powder keg, which can be activated in the future, when they need it. Lucky for them, history left them many powder kegs in Yugoslavia that they could activate at the right time. The end of the cold war and the collapse of the USSR was the right time.

But try explaining to the pro-western and pro-Russian circles in ex-Yu that both the west and Russia preferred Yugoslavia not to exist if they can't have full control over it.
Actually, the Russians tried to take full control of Yugoslavia through Great Serbia, but the west wasn't sleeping and it didn't allow a great Serbia.
So, it's not just Milosevic's madness, but some long and tricky diplomatic chess games between the Great Powers were the reason of the war in Yugoslavia and the NATO bombings of Serbia.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Yes... I wanted to say exactly that!

Some day when you're free i want you to tell me the whole story from your point of view about Yugoslavia and how and why it got split up and what exactly you think of it. In a PM of course because i realize how sensitive this whole issue is.

My opinion can never be deep enough nor it can answer many questions of yours I'm afraid. I wasn't born when Tito had control over the whole place, so I can't even judge it, maybe just present others' opinion about the whole mess. Even in real life when I start talking about something that involves Yugoslavia they tell me "Nah, you're young enough and you can't see it right from this point of view". Alen on the other hand is much more involved with the history subject and he can probably answer your questions much better, like he did above. Oh and not just that, but he's pretty much neutrally presenting facts, despite him being a Croat

 

[Fred]

Aha. But what about Milosovic, Mladic and the rest of the gang? What they did in Bosnia? I don't know much about the issue, but i would imagine that the Bosnians wanted to have their own country, and after Srebrenica that demand would be even stronger, no? Isn't it the same with Croatians, Montenegrans and the other countries that used to be part of Yugoslavia? As in they wanted independence too?

I'm not very well versed on the issue, so i hope no one takes offense.

 

[delrey]

Bosnia wasnt country, just federal unit. There were a lot Serbs in Bosnia. You cant just go with independence and dont asking anyone. People must go to referendum and vote. But im stoping here, i may drag some hate.
There are two lines in the end of Yugoslavian national anthem and it's saying:
Damned be the traitor
of his homeland!
Traitor have lot of forms, one man, two man, 100 mans, federal units.

 

[Fred]

Delrey, pm me. I am interested, but i do realize its a sensitive issue. Your views will remain confidential i promise.

 

[Snoop]

don't trust him delrey

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Bosnia wasnt country, just federal unit. There were a lot Serbs in Bosnia. You cant just go with independence and dont asking anyone. People must go to referendum and vote. But im stoping here, i may drag some hate.
There are two lines in the end of Yugoslavian national anthem and it's saying:
Damned be the traitor
of his homeland!

Traitor have lot of forms, one man, two man, 100 mans, federal units.

so Bosnians(notice how thats what the people of Bosnia are called) need to listen to Serbs(not bosnians) about what they want to do with yes once again Bosnia? and you can save you and me the history lesson, my question was food for thought

 

[delrey]

You didn't read that carefully. Bosnia wasnt country, just federal unit. And as such she cant go with independence.
Borders of all federal units were made randomly. And that happened because stupid comunism party laziness.
Example:
Today country Bosnia consist in two parts.
1.Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina
2.Republika Srpska

Both Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Republika Srpska were in Bosnia federal unit.
The point of this that you can take only what is yours.

 

[delrey]

don't trust him delrey

You thinik? Hmm
Eh, to hell. Im gonna pm him tomorow, now im busy.

 

[Fred]

Don't listen to that poisonous fuck Del Rey.

 

[Alen]

You didn't read that carefully. Bosnia wasnt country, just federal unit.

That isn't the important part here Delrey. Bosnia was a republic just like the other 5. The problem was that in the constitution of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the right of self-determination and secession was given only to the 5 Yugoslav nations (narodi), the Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrin and Macedonians. Since a Bosnian nation didn't exist in the constitution and it wasn't the republics but the nations that had the right of secession, it was legally impossible for Bosnia to gain independence.
Croatia and especially Serbia wanted to take advantage of that and include in Croatia and Serbia the big parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina in which Croats and Serbs lived.

Like I said earlier, Great Serbia with big Russian influence in it was definitely what the west didn't want. That's why the Venice Commission was created in 1990 and one of its duties was "constitutional assistance in Central and Eastern Europe". They simply interfered in the Yugoslav constitution and allowed republics to have the right of secession, not the nations, which gave a legal ground for Bosnia and Herzegovina and all the other ex-Yu republics to gain independence.

This being said, only God knows how did an autonomous province like Kosovo gain its independence. There were absolutely no legal grounds for that whatsoever. It's even funnier how what the west counted for Kosovo, doesn't count for an autonomous province like Basque, for example.

 

[Fake Melo]

19 Jun. 2011
NATO acknowledges civilian casualties in Tripoli strike
Naples – NATO says that a military missile site was the intended target of air strikes in Tripoli last night. However, it appears that one weapon did not strike the intended target and that there may have been a weapons system failure which may have caused a number of civilian casualties.

“NATO regrets the loss of innocent civilian lives and takes great care in conducting strikes against a regime determined to use violence against its own citizens,” said Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, Commander of Operation Unified Protector. “Although we are still determining the specifics of this event, indications are that a weapons system failure may have caused this incident,” he added.
This campaign has conducted over 11,500 sorties and every mission is planned and executed with tremendous care to avoid civilian casualties. NATO remains fully committed to this operation.
NATO’s operation UNIFIED PROTECTOR is being conducted under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. This mandate authorizes NATO to use all necessary measures to protect the civilian population of Libya. The Qadhafi regime could stop all this fighting by complying with the international community’s demands.


- Well done bastards.

 

[Dostoevsky]

7 people died last night, including some children.

I hear it every day how they die there. NATO is doing what they did in Belgrade and Serbia.

 

[Fred]

May they RIP, Nato needs to step it up, they're fucking around too much lately. Almost as if they want to prolong this conflict. Too bad its either this, or we go back to Gedaffi bombing his own people and killing hundreds. Its not an ideal situation when we're having to rely on NATO, but its the only one we have. My biggest qualm with NATO is that it is bombing Tripoli, a city that hasn't been turned into a warzone yet, there isn't any armed resistance by the people, not on a large scale at least. But Misrata which is the city that has suffered the most from Gedaffi's crimes post revolution is being left on its own, rarely has NATO helped them, even though they need it so much more than Tripoli. The cities in the Western Mountains were being bombed by grad missiles for two months and NATO didn't help them out, but were bombing Tripoli every day. To be honest, something fishy is going on, and it seems that NATO really does want to prolong the conflict for some reason.

 

[Snoop]

May they RIP, Nato needs to step it up, they're fucking around too much lately. Almost as if they want to prolong this conflict. Too bad its either this, or we go back to Gedaffi bombing his own people and killing hundreds. Its not an ideal situation when we're having to rely on NATO, but its the only one we have. My biggest qualm with NATO is that it is bombing Tripoli, a city that hasn't been turned into a warzone yet, there isn't any armed resistance by the people, not on a large scale at least. But Misrata which is the city that has suffered the most from Gedaffi's crimes post revolution is being left on its own, rarely has NATO helped them, even though they need it so much more than Tripoli. The cities in the Western Mountains were being bombed by grad missiles for two months and NATO didn't help them out, but were bombing Tripoli every day. To be honest, something fishy is going on, and it seems that NATO really does want to prolong the conflict for some reason.

I was shocked when you welcomed NATO to Libya, now you understood why I had concerns. It's the most terrible thing to wish, for this, I am always concerned about the situation in Syria. It will be much uglier than Libya..