Libya 2011 Demonstrations (37 Viewers)

[Fred]

Snoop, i haven't changed my mind, despite the reservations i have about any foreign intervention in Libya, it is still absolutely necessary. Before the coalition forces(who came in before NATO) bombed Libya, Gedaffi's forces almost got Benghazi back, they came in with tanks, planes, ships, grad missiles, and asked Benghazi to surrender back to Gedaffi, or else face destruction, before NATO and the coalition forces came in, people were dying by 70's and 80's per day. They were being bombed, and the pictures were absolutely terrible, the ones of people being cut into pieces by the bombs. NATO are fucking up a lot, but it is much better than before they came in, the numbers say that clearly.

 

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[Snoop]

I don't know, I wouldn't trust Nato. Those bitches don't come for nothing, they will steal your country, kill many and then leave..

 

[Enron]

But without an international presence Gadaffi would likely have killed much of Libya's population and many more civilians.
They call it a Catch 22.

So he has a bit of a dilemma. Either accept Gaddafi's power and hope that he doesn't kill all your friends and family or accept the western influence and hope they don't stay any longer than they need to. Hindsight is always 20/20 and it's way easier to make broad based statements when you personally have nothing at stake or you're on the outside looking in.

Fred is one of the most critical of the West and western influence on this forum, to assume that he has not thought long and hard about the implications of NATO involvement before deciding his feeling on the situation is completely naive.

 

[Snoop]

But without an international presence Gadaffi would likely have killed much of Libya's population and many more civilians.
They call it a Catch 22.

So he has a bit of a dilemma. Either accept Gaddafi's power and hope that he doesn't kill all your friends and family or accept the western influence and hope they don't stay any longer than they need to. Hindsight is always 20/20 and it's way easier to make broad based statements when you personally have nothing at stake or you're on the outside looking in.

Fred is one of the most critical of the West and western influence on this forum, to assume that he has not thought long and hard about the implications of NATO involvement before deciding his feeling on the situation is completely naive.

Actually that's the weird part! He criticized them and opposed them all the time, yet welcomed them to attack his country.. I know what you and him are talking about, but is NATO the only solution?

 

[Enron]

Actually that's the weird part! He criticized them and opposed them all the time, yet welcomed them to attack his country.. I know what you and him are talking about, but is NATO the only solution?

Right now it's the best solution for Fred. Considering the revolutionary population is a leaderless majority consisting mostly of non-fighting men, to which the result of no international involvement was slaughter of both fighters and civilians.

I guess the international community could provide the revolutionaries with weapons, food, and money to wage their war, but what good is it to give a fishing poll to a mason.

Another option would be to just allowing nature to take its course and either the Libyan people will learn on the job and eventually win or mostly likely lose and be killed.

There aren't many options that don't end in lots of Libyans getting killed so from Fred's perspective I can see why he would be pro-NATO.

 

[Bjerknes]

But without an international presence Gadaffi would likely have killed much of Libya's population and many more civilians.

I stopped reading here, Eazy.

This happens everywhere and nobody in this country bats an eye.

There is no free lunch. Fred wants a free lunch in this case because he is anti-Ghaddafi and wants to see him removed. Now if the US starts bombing another place he'll say he disagrees with the violence and revert back to his anti-US stance.

It's all bullshit. It's not worth the lives and money of our country, especially when this whole batshit place can't even keep out the number two Al Qaeda leader from our own Pentagon.

 

[Enron]

I stopped reading here, Eazy.

This happens everywhere and nobody in this country bats an eye.

There is no free lunch. Fred wants a free lunch in this case because he is anti-Ghaddafi and wants to see him removed. Now if the US starts bombing another place he'll say he disagrees with the violence and revert back to his anti-US stance.

It's all bullshit. It's not worth the lives and money of our country, especially when this whole batshit place can't even keep out the number two Al Qaeda leader from our own Pentagon.

I thank you for not giving me the respect of finishing the post before laying judgement on my words.

My post wasn't about the morals or politics or US involvement in the Libyan revolution, it was just an explanation of why Fred is pro-NATO in this case and anti-NATO/West in most others.

 

[Bjerknes]

But that's the moral of the story, E. Everyone only cares about their own interests, nothing else. That's why even though I know Fred is a great guy, I can't take him seriously on this issue.

 

[Enron]

But that's the moral of the story, E. Everyone only cares about their own interests, nothing else. That's why even though I know Fred is a great guy, I can't take him seriously on this issue.

That's pretty much the gist of my post.

 

[Bjerknes]

We need to start worrying about this country before others.

Personally, I think Obama should be impeached for this, as that will set the standard for the next wave of presidents trying to break the law.

But I'm an extremist, so the tyranny continues.

Watch for a ground invasion in Fall. According to troops at Fort Hood, some are saying they are being prepared for deployment.

 

[Fred]

But without an international presence Gadaffi would likely have killed much of Libya's population and many more civilians.
They call it a Catch 22.

So he has a bit of a dilemma. Either accept Gaddafi's power and hope that he doesn't kill all your friends and family or accept the western influence and hope they don't stay any longer than they need to. Hindsight is always 20/20 and it's way easier to make broad based statements when you personally have nothing at stake or you're on the outside looking in.

Fred is one of the most critical of the West and western influence on this forum, to assume that he has not thought long and hard about the implications of NATO involvement before deciding his feeling on the situation is completely naive.

Exactly, it wasn't like we had any choice. Gedaffi already killed 10 thousand Libyans before the coalition forces and NATO came in, its not like we had much choice, Gedaffi was killing people like mad, he didn't have a problem cleansing the country of every and each one opposed to him. Something had to be done.

Actually that's the weird part! He criticized them and opposed them all the time, yet welcomed them to attack his country.. I know what you and him are talking about, but is NATO the only solution?

Like i said Snoop, we didn't have much choice. You're saying NATO is not the only solution, well i'd love to hear how else you want us to face air bombardment, bombs, grad missiles, 14.5 bullets, anti aircraft RPG's etc. We certainly don't have the weaponry, we certainly don't have the army, the majority of the rebels are normal civilians who had a week or two military training. I think our best option is to risk it with NATO, the number of civilians killed by Gedaffi has decreased considerably ever since NATO came in. They're not doing their job properly, but like i said its not like we have much options.

Right now it's the best solution for Fred. Considering the revolutionary population is a leaderless majority consisting mostly of non-fighting men, to which the result of no international involvement was slaughter of both fighters and civilians.

I guess the international community could provide the revolutionaries with weapons, food, and money to wage their war, but what good is it to give a fishing poll to a mason.

Another option would be to just allowing nature to take its course and either the Libyan people will learn on the job and eventually win or mostly likely lose and be killed.

There aren't many options that don't end in lots of Libyans getting killed so from Fred's perspective I can see why he would be pro-NATO.

Exactly, you understand my point of view completely.

But that's the moral of the story, E. Everyone only cares about their own interests, nothing else. That's why even though I know Fred is a great guy, I can't take him seriously on this issue.

I see why as an American citizen you'd be frustrated that yet again, your country is spending its citizens tax payers money in another war thousands of kilometers from home. But i think you also watch the news enough to know that pre western intervention thousands of Libyans died at the hand of this mad dictator, i have friends who lost cousins, family, friends, relatives etc. It was a terrible time for Libyans(still is), i don't know what you mean by you can't take me seriously on this issue. But i think it should be understandable to any sane person why i'd accept any help to stop the killing of my own people. Everybody's looking out for his interests? Its not like i have any economic or monetary gain from this, and i think you're clever enough to know that this war is going to cost us billions, but all that is nothing in front of human life.

 

[delrey]

May they RIP, Nato needs to step it up, they're fucking around too much lately. Almost as if they want to prolong this conflict. Too bad its either this, or we go back to Gedaffi bombing his own people and killing hundreds. Its not an ideal situation when we're having to rely on NATO, but its the only one we have. My biggest qualm with NATO is that it is bombing Tripoli, a city that hasn't been turned into a warzone yet, there isn't any armed resistance by the people, not on a large scale at least. But Misrata which is the city that has suffered the most from Gedaffi's crimes post revolution is being left on its own, rarely has NATO helped them, even though they need it so much more than Tripoli. The cities in the Western Mountains were being bombed by grad missiles for two months and NATO didn't help them out, but were bombing Tripoli every day. To be honest, something fishy is going on, and it seems that NATO really does want to prolong the conflict for some reason.

Of course. More destruction, more to rebuild. More money to them from you.
How the fuck many military instalations Libya has. Because, NATO saying they boombing just military instalations? Its pathetic. Its even more when some NATO official comes in TV and start BSing.

 

[delrey]

That isn't the important part here Delrey. Bosnia was a republic just like the other 5. The problem was that in the constitution of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the right of self-determination and secession was given only to the 5 Yugoslav nations (narodi), the Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrin and Macedonians. Since a Bosnian nation didn't exist in the constitution and it wasn't the republics but the nations that had the right of secession, it was legally impossible for Bosnia to gain independence.
Croatia and especially Serbia wanted to take advantage of that and include in Croatia and Serbia the big parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina in which Croats and Serbs lived.

Like I said earlier, Great Serbia with big Russian influence in it was definitely what the west didn't want. That's why the Venice Commission was created in 1990 and one of its duties was "constitutional assistance in Central and Eastern Europe". They simply interfered in the Yugoslav constitution and allowed republics to have the right of secession, not the nations, which gave a legal ground for Bosnia and Herzegovina and all the other ex-Yu republics to gain independence.

This being said, only God knows how did an autonomous province like Kosovo gain its independence. There were absolutely no legal grounds for that whatsoever. It's even funnier how what the west counted for Kosovo, doesn't count for an autonomous province like Basque, for example.

I something agree, something disagree. I will post again. My computer is dead. Im posting from ljeb-top, and its hard.
IMO Great Serbia is just an ideology. I cant find evidence war happened because of that. If you mean, Great Serbia=istocna Slavonija, Dubrovnik, Spit, Cela Makedonija,...
Great country would that be

 

[Fred]

Of course. More destruction, more to rebuild. More money to them from you.
How the fuck many military instalations Libya has. Because, NATO saying they boombing just military instalations? Its pathetic. Its even more when some NATO official comes in TV and start BSing.

Mate, the targets they are hitting i know most of them, they are mostly quite well known military bases and weapon stores, until now NATO haven't done anything special on the intel level, most of the targets they hit, are obvious military targets, ie anyone who knows his way around Libya knows these places, which means of course Gedaffi expects them to hit these places.

 

[delrey]

Keep beliving that

 

[Fred]

Unless you mean, that sometime in the future they're going to start bombing non military targets, thats another issue. But until now other than their fuckup last time where 9 civilians were killed in a non military location, all of the targets they bomb in Sebha(my city) and Tripoli are military targets, that i guarantee you, because i know both those cities, and i know the targets that they hit.

 

[delrey]

OK. Than you wait for ground invasion.

 

[Fred]

OK. Than you wait for ground invasion.

Now that is something that is absolutely unacceptable. I am confident that the Transitional National Council will not allow that to happen.

 

[delrey]

I would love to see Libyans live better, but i doubt that will happen. 11 years past since 5th October "revolution", in here and its worse than ever. Our currency lost its value. NATO dont alow us to instal again our radars. They blocked us from buying s-300, as well as other surface to air missiles. Etc, etc. We are practicly slaves.
And that's democracy. If you like it, go for it.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Unless you mean, that sometime in the future they're going to start bombing non military targets, thats another issue. But until now other than their fuckup last time where 9 civilians were killed in a non military location, all of the targets they bomb in Sebha(my city) and Tripoli are military targets, that i guarantee you, because i know both those cities, and i know the targets that they hit.

I read it every day how they bomb civil buildings or such. Plenty of times I've seen such news, or even heard. It's not only the last time when 7(?) people died, but more.

I would love to see Libyans live better, but i doubt that will happen. 11 years past since 5th October "revolution", in here and its worse than ever. Our currency lost its value. NATO dont alow us to instal again our radars. They blocked us from buying s-300, as well as other surface to air missiles. Etc, etc. We are practicly slaves.
And that's democracy. If you like it, go for it.

I've been saying that a couple of months ago to our Egyptian members. They were sure I'm wrong... and hell, I hope I was. But democracy is made to make your country a debt slave, and to become a puppet. It will only get worse, and yes, it can always be worse.