Juve doing without del piero?! (1 Viewer)

Ali · Mar 15, 2003

After watching the Depor game yet again :rolleyes:

something seems to stick out. Like the team is a bit tentative & apprehensive. It is as if the midfield has been told to supplement the defence. Everyone was playing extremely defensivesly. What does this do to the team? It makes us work overtime - Defending and at the same time trying to attack. The right wing was effectively dead because Camo was playing too deep and insisted on getting rid of the ball quickly in order to fall back. Until we change this attitude then we shall struggle at CL level. We need a midfield that moves as a group and actually moves past the midfield to feed the strikers. What's the use of Trez trotting all the way back to our half to pass the ball back & ran forward to get into position? :rolleyes:

Glen we do not want to create a team carved of stone to last a lifetime. Remember dependency on Zizou and what it cost us? A team of Juve's status should be able to do well even if DP is out. About Trez/DP combination - Yes it is fantastic and am not taking anything away from Trez but at this level we just can't afford to mould one style of play regardless of the negative repercurssions when say an injury hits a member of the team.
I remember Di Livio and his wonderful spirit :thumb: We seem to miss this kind of aggressive playing style. I agree with you Erik on the leadership thing and certainly Nedved will not cope with that role although the team always rises a notch or two when he is in fine form. Time & again I have admired Beckam taking the game to the opposition, especially when playing for England. Emerson typfies this type of spirit though.
The other sad fact is that Montero tenure should be brought to an end. Before you smack my face Tom just watch his recent performances.

Numbers - 3
The number of Juve players who resort to cynical challenges when well beaten by opponents.
1. Tacchi
2. Iuliano
3. Montero

Tom · Mar 15, 2003

I know he's been generally poor of late, but I still reckon he could do it for another year if partnered by a younger centre half, with pace.

Ali · Mar 15, 2003

Let him go honourably like we knew and loved him.

Ali · Mar 15, 2003

.... and still love him

Glen · Mar 15, 2003

Trez will go back to be a drop zone often no matter what midfield we have. But of course I'd agree that he should be getting the ball in positions where he could do some damage. Yes- I'd prefer a more adventourous midfield too- at least the options of inserting a player who could help dictate offence. But at the same time you must remember that DP on the field is one of the reasons the midfielders can get the time to get deep in the field as he can hold on to the ball when it's played to him. If you judge on the Depor game- we also missed the Camo as he has been in most of the big matches, and Di Vaio was off too.

But didn't you just say the problem was in midfield not participating enough? What is it? I agree we shouldn't be so dependant on one player, and that's why I'd like not only a Miccoli to cover for DP, but also a player to cover for Nedved AND Maresca to be groomed as the future two way regista of Juventus. But as correct as you are in saying that our midfield leaves Trez isolated, you have to decide what your conclusion is.

1: Change or make additions in midfield.
2: Play a more mobile striker.... of the sort we bought one before the season... Di Vaio for €28 million.

If you select '1' which is really what you argue- then there's no need to follow '2'. If you select '2' you might still need to do '1'.

Anyway- obviously I wouldn't be sad if we got someone great up front, but not at the expense of Trez. At the same time I think it's a needless postion to invest big looking at the squad.

For instance- if we were told we could make a choice of getting Cissé and Candela for the team (both a mobile and lightning qiuck quality striker and a great left back)- or Emerson, I'd personally choose Emerson without a blink, as we're fine in attack already and left back we can shuffle around to meet requirements. Emerson would CHANGE us for the better. So we agree on the midfield part, but not in conclusions reaching out of the midfield discourse

.

And btw. I'm not advocating selling Tach. or Davids or anything. Fact is that we only have Tacchi and Davids who are competent to start in central midfield right now, and that REALLY sucks.

Ciao.

Tom · Mar 15, 2003

Glen, just wondering if we were to Buy Emerson, what would be your midfield then? Would you replace tacchi, or Davids, or change the formation to fit around all three?

Personally I think he is a great player, but he won't be willing to sit on the bench. Neither will Tacchi or Davids really. The purchase might create problems

Ali · Mar 15, 2003

My gripe at the moment is on the midfield and Trez too. On the midfield case we have a common concensus. Am off for lunch but & I'll be back to continue this ....

Glen · Mar 15, 2003

Paolo: My first lineup in that scenario would be Emerson-Davids no question.

But I suppose I'm on the same patch as DaJuve in as far as midfield is a problem. For me it's not Tacchi and Davids who are the problem though. It's the fact that the only other players available behind Nedved excluding those two warriors are Conte, Tudor and Fresi (with Baiocco on loan). Unless Conte can REALLY shake his recurrent injuries- none of these players have what it takes in midfield... well.. skip that.. Conte hasn't got what it takes either. Him staying out his carrier is nostalgia more than anything. I admit that

. That means we have 2 players for central midfield who can be trusted against anyone. That's just rediculous. We'll already see it at Basel where Davids is suspended. Imagine if that has been a decisive game where we had to win... and we would be forced to play the offensively/creatively challenged duo of Tacchi and Conte/Tudor/Fresi.... no...not at Juve.

So- to answer your question; I would rotate the three. Emerson could easily play with both, just as I hope Maresca will be played with both next year, with Blasi 4th in the pecking order.

Sure- that means one will take the bench... but really. We are Juve. Every other top side has great players on the bench, and if we're serious about CL and dual campaigns- we have to have such depth too in midfield.

Btw. I'm not saying we should necessarily buy Emerson as we have Maresca. I see no reason why we couldn't take in both AND have Blasi too though. Just necessitates that Fresi goes somewhere else and Tudor 'becomes' what he is- a defender.
It was just an example on how the team could be changed with the signing of a proven player. It could have been Stankovic too to mention a player most people (including me) like. Provided we do actually take back Maresca the need for the creative enforcer is less predominant though, and I'd just as well get Pizarro as a value for money signing to cover for Nedved instead. Like many others I do have the dream that Rafael van der Vaart will some day play at Juve though

.But taht is just that. A dream.

Ciao.

Ian · Mar 15, 2003

Are you trying to tell me that you think that Buffon doesn't carry this team? I watch Buffon, game in and game out, waiting for him to make a mistake, and Isee when he does. I see when he doesn't play well, and I see the team falter in front of him.

Hydde · Mar 15, 2003

hey delpiero score today a goal in the primavera game...!

this means nothing but, he must start form something right?

Glen · Mar 15, 2003

I'm not trying to tell you anything

. I'm flat out telling you that your examples didn't make any sense

.

Buffon didn't have to make ONE single save against Inter. How do you deduce that he had any effect on the game?
In the other game he didn't even play, and while you might have a point that Chimenti could have met Beckhams's exquisiste long pass to prevent just as exquisite a finish from RvN- Chimenti is hardly to blame for that loss. Moreover- that Juve team didn't falter. It' took the game to United at Old Trafford and deserved more than a point to be honest.

So... I didn't understand what you meant, while now I guess I do, and I completely disagree. Buffon can keep us in matches when we're not on song, and he has had instrumental saves for sure. But that's it. When we play like we did against Inter- we could have any rookie in goal. Exagurated statement for sure, but as Buffon didn't have to make a single save it makes sense just the same.

The more I think about it- the more weird your comment seems to me. First loss of the season- at Newcastle- Buffon was implicated in one goal.. sure. He also had a string of outstanding saves. Did you see Juve-Lazio? Buffon was alongside Nedved our best man on the night. Brescia- third loss. Juventus were CRAP, and Buffon could do absolutely nothing on the two goals. He didn't play at Old Trafford. Then we've our disagreement about his performance at home against Manchester were I think he might be implicated in the second, flatfooted and rooted as he was. Also he could have met the on-rushing Solskjaer better in the second with the score 0-2. But how that translates to "the team faultering in front of him" when he had shown no insecurity what so ever when: Zambrotta fell on the ball, Conte delivered a brilliant pass to Giggs, or Tudor headed against the upright... is beyond me

.
The above listed are our losses this season, and Buffon has been implicated in a goal or two in those matches at most. There has also been goals scored in matches we've won were we could think he could have done better. But seriously- what are you getting at?

The defenders have COMPLETE confidence in Gigi. You see virtually no signs of insecurity or lack of communication at set pieces anymore. He is a shot stopper, and he is a brilliant side dish, but he has NO influence on our game when compared to the impact of an on/off form Nedved or Del Piero for instance. None whatsoever, and the reason for that is that keepers only have this effect when they either save alot of chances (which Bufgfon is rarely called upon to do) or ooze insecurity, which is even more dramatically rare from Buffon.

Ciao.

Ian · Mar 15, 2003

++ [ originally posted by Glen ] ++
I'm not trying to tell you anything

. I'm flat out telling you that your examples didn't make any sense

.

Buffon didn't have to make ONE single save against Inter. How do you deduce that he had any effect on the game?
In the other game he didn't even play, and while you might have a point that Chimenti could have met Beckhams's exquisiste long pass to prevent just as exquisite a finish from RvN- Chimenti is hardly to blame for that loss. Moreover- that Juve team didn't falter. It' took the game to United at Old Trafford and deserved more than a point to be honest.

So... I didn't understand what you meant, while now I guess I do, and I completely disagree. Buffon can keep us in matches when we're not on song, and he has had instrumental saves for sure. But that's it. When we play like we did against Inter- we could have any rookie in goal. Exagurated statement for sure, but as Buffon didn't have to make a single save it makes sense just the same.

The more I think about it- the more weird your comment seems to me. First loss of the season- at Newcastle- Buffon was implicated in one goal.. sure. He also had a string of outstanding saves. Did you see Juve-Lazio? Buffon was alongside Nedved our best man on the night. Brescia- third loss. Juventus were CRAP, and Buffon could do absolutely nothing on the two goals. He didn't play at Old Trafford. Then we've our disagreement about his performance at home against Manchester were I think he might be implicated in the second, flatfooted and rooted as he was. Also he could have met the on-rushing Solskjaer better in the second with the score 0-2. But how that translates to "the team faultering in front of him" when he had shown no insecurity what so ever when: Zambrotta fell on the ball, Conte delivered a brilliant pass to Giggs, or Tudor headed against the upright... is beyond me

.
The above listed are our losses this season, and Buffon has been implicated in a goal or two in those matches at most. There has also been goals scored in matches we've won were we could think he could have done better. But seriously- what are you getting at?

The defenders have COMPLETE confidence in Gigi. You see virtually no signs of insecurity or lack of communication at set pieces anymore. He is a shot stopper, and he is a brilliant side dish, but he has NO influence on our game when compared to the impact of an on/off form Nedved or Del Piero for instance. None whatsoever, and the reason for that is that keepers only have this effect when they either save alot of chances (which Bufgfon is rarely called upon to do) or ooze insecurity, which is even more dramatically rare from Buffon.

Ciao.

Alright mate, brilliant run down of losses, but I wasn't being nearly so intricate in my explaination. I'm not going to go game by game and tell you about it, but it just seems to me that Buffon's play (whether making saves or otherwise), is a barometer of the team. Obviously it doesn't work in every case, but it seems to be easier to see than DP effect on the team. Hell, we beat Inter 3-0 without DP. WE also lost 3-0 to Man U without him. And with him we have won and lost games by wide margins. My point was that Buffon is much more important to the teams performances than DP is.

Glen · Mar 15, 2003

Ian: Whatever it is you base this opinion on... I'm inclined to say.. whatever your motive is

... if you want it to have any credence you must present an argument for it. Just like I've seen you do many times in the past- where we have agreed or disagreed on various forums.

But this time you list two examples that are first of all in themselves very poor ones if you want them to support your argument, and second of all when called on them- you give no other explanation than "Buffon is more important to the teams performances than DP is" and still no argumentation.

What is it? you wanna up the profile and importance of goalkeepers or what

?

Ciao.

Ian · Mar 15, 2003

I'm shocked and appauled that you would even suggest that!

MissDelPiero · Mar 16, 2003

hahahahaha:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:but without dp...would we be first in Serie A?...did you forget all the work he has done this season (scoring 12 goals and he IS the leader of this juventus...) (and also last one...how he played in every position when Neddy wasn't "there" just to help him)... ok...its your opinion...
and for Nedved himself ..he's missin' DP..he won't be able to play with that intensity forever..........ciao belli!!
Forza Alessandro "pinturicchio" Del Piero!!

MissDelPiero · Mar 16, 2003

yep , and when he came out, Moggy asked him an autograph... he score a beautyful goal and said that he'll be back for basilea...

Moggy also said that he learned to alex how to score like that

(Torna anche Del Piero: gioca, diverte e segna con la Primavera )

Desmond · Mar 16, 2003

i agree with majed that neddy has been proven more instumental to the team than del piero this season.not by much though,both are very important players.

Majed · Mar 16, 2003

No, we wouldn't be first, but we would be in the top 5 at least!
However, without Nedved, would we even be in the top 5? probibly not.

i can tell your a big DP fan, well, So am i. but you need to be realistic.
half of DP's goals were from assists or plays by nedved!!
Juve has been undefeated in serie A ever since DP has been out. (that doesn't mean that DP is useless, it just means that he's not the most vital for the team).
without Nedved, Juventus would only be able to play a flat 4-4-2. That's it!!
Don't get me wrong, i think DP is extremely important for juve to win the title as he can give that extra touch and dimesnion to a team to win trophis(the CL). On the other hand, without Nedved, there won't be a team at all!

as a fan u need to look at the facts, dont judge just because of your love for DP.

KeNgO · Mar 16, 2003

Majed i am with you all the way bro.

i believe the most influenctial player this season with juventus has been Nedved!!! i am not saying the other players were not important as well!!!
just want to make it clear that with out nedved juventus would of not have acheived what it has already done!!!! i believe that a team cannot function properly and play good football with out a proper play maker!!!
del piero is great! scoring alot of goals this season and playing very nice football! but nedved was the one who supplied most of them and don't forget the very important goals neddy scored for us this year! the last being the double that undone Modena and each and every goals of the one he scored is well taken and a joy to watch!!!

i do believe that nedved is probably one of the best players with an excellent long range efforts!!! i don't recall anyone scoring as much as he did with amazing screamers

Tom · Mar 16, 2003

totally agreed, but this will never happen with some people, who probably would support whoever DP played for rather than stick with Juve if we sold him

Juve doing without del piero?! (1 Viewer)

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