Israeli-Palestinian conflict (87 Viewers)

[Seven]

It is a false equivalency though, hamas is the elected and de facto leadership of gazans. Israel and Israeli goverments has nothing to do with dispora jews.

It is purest form of racism. And you seem to justify it.

This is very questionable at this point.

 

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[Tomice]

This is very questionable at this point.

What is?

 

[Seven]

What is?

Well, being elected once does not imply you can claim indefinitely you are elected.

That's not really how elections generally work.

 

[Ronn]

You mock me.

Twice now.

Yet your example literally confirms what I'm saying: any regime needs popular support or it will fall.

And we weren't talking about Iran. We were talking about Palestine. Hamas may or may not be tied to Iran, but it does not matter. Without enough popular support from Palestinians Hamas will not be able to control the area. And not even because of local resistance, but because of international pressure (in case a viable solution is presented) too.

Nothing that you say contradicts this. It just reenforces it. I would like you to read before you laugh.

It very much contradicts what’s you’re saying. Hamas can buy enough support by allocating means of subsistence to their limited number of supporters. That’s not “popular support”. That’s minority rule. A very small minority rule.
Hamas IS tied to Iran. There’s no debate there.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

It is a false equivalency though, hamas is the elected and de facto leadership of gazans. Israel and Israeli goverments has nothing to do with dispora jews.

It is purest form of racism. And you seem to justify it.

I am asking him to be consistent. And it's not a false equivalency, every jew in the world is a de facto israeli. Because israel is an ethnostate.

 

[Tomice]

Well, being elected once does not imply you can claim indefinitely you are elected.

That's not really how elections generally work.

True. But it is not like they voted in a movment that hid its intentions or decived them to think there will ever be another election.
I'm also sure they still will beat the PA if any election in gaza will take place in the near future

 

[Seven]

It very much contradicts what’s you’re saying. Hamas can buy enough support by allocating means of subsistence to their limited number of supporters. That’s not “popular support”. That’s minority rule. A very small minority rule.
Hamas IS tied to Iran. There’s no debate there.

No, they can't.

In the end numbers always win. Sure, you could 'enforce' it by killing anyone who resists. But if enough women resist, that would come down to killing your entire population. Then who's going to work for you?

I have the idea you think history began 50 years ago.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

True. But it is not like they voted in a movment that hid its intentions or decived them to think there will ever be another election.
I'm also sure they still will beat the PA if any election in gaza will take place in the near future

Something like 85% of qassam brigades is made up of people orphaned by israel. Of course they would vote hamas. I would too if i lived there and israel killed my parents.

 

[Seven]

True. But it is not like they voted in a movment that hid its intentions or decived them to think there will ever be another election.
I'm also sure they still will beat the PA if any election in gaza will take place in the near future

Well, they might.

And really it was only a sidenote from me. But just like equating the Israeli government with the Israeli people, I think it's wrong to equate Palestinians with Hamas. And even more so, because Hamas were elected ages ago. If they were elected yesterday, you could make the case that they have a mandate from the people. But today we really don't know if that's the case.

 

[Tomice]

I am asking him to be consistent. And it's not a false equivalency, every jew in the world is a de facto israeli. Because israel is an ethnostate.

It is a fair point, I disagree though. Not every jew wants, care or willing to be an Israeli, you are forcing it upon them for the fact they are jewish.

 

[Ronn]

No, they can't.

In the end numbers always win. Sure, you could 'enforce' it by killing anyone who resists. But if enough women resist, that would come down to killing your entire population. Then who's going to work for you?

I have the idea you think history began 50 years ago.

Yes time will solve all the problems. I can safely predict that Hamas won’t exist 1000 years from now.
We’re not talking about that time scale, are we?

 

[Seven]

It is a fair point, I disagree though. Not every jew wants, care or willing to be an Israeli, you are forcing it upon them for the fact they are jewish.

I disagree as well. They are two different things.

And I mean, isn't it partly evidenced by the diaspora? If you care that much about a Jewish state and in particular about that Jewish state being Israel, wouldn't you want to be there?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

It is a fair point, I disagree though. Not every jew wants, care or willing to be an Israeli, you are forcing it upon them for the fact they are jewish.

Just to be clear, i am not endorsing any of those actions against jews or israelis. I wanted him yo stay consistent. He argued that since people voted for hamas they should bear the responsibility with them. Ergo, he should hold the same stance vis a vis israel.

 

[Tomice]

Something like 85% of qassam brigades is made up of people orphaned by israel. Of course they would vote hamas. I would too if i lived there and israel killed my parents.

Sure. And I don't hold it against them. It's well within their right

 

[Post Ironic]

No. Stay on course, stay consistent. Per the logic you presented(look back on your posts) to justify israels actions, your anger and indignation at these first world problems you depict as some great tragedy is squarely on israel and israelis who democratically elected a criminal genocidal regime that is killing civilians indiscriminately. Any blowback is on them.

C’mon lol

 

[Ronn]

True. But it is not like they voted in a movment that hid its intentions or decived them to think there will ever be another election.
I'm also sure they still will beat the PA if any election in gaza will take place in the near future

Polls in these countries are typically unreliable but usually to the other direction that this poll suggests
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org...gainst-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

 

[Tomice]

Just to be clear, i am not endorsing any of those actions against jews or israelis. I wanted him yo stay consistent. He argued that since people voted for hamas they should bear the responsibility with them. Ergo, he should hold the same stance vis a vis israel.

Sure, but diaspora jews don't get to vote in Israeli election. Heck, even israelis living abroad can't.

 

[Seven]

Yes time will solve all the problems. I can safely predict that Hamas won’t exist 1000 years from now.
We’re not talking about that time scale, are we?

Of course we are. Time matters.

That's why I said the will of the people will make or break any solution. Hamas has been in power for less than two decades. Maybe you could say their roots have been in charge for a couple of decades more. Regimes have ruled for hundreds of years though. Le Roi-Soleil happened less than a century before the fucking French Revolution.

If you present a solution that is likely to be appealing to Palestinians, Hamas will lose popular support and they will crumble. No matter what financial injections they might receive. Terrorize civilians and Hamas will grow. It has been like this just about every time in history. It will be the same now.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I disagree as well. They are two different things.

And I mean, isn't it partly evidenced by the diaspora? If you care that much about a Jewish state and in particular about that Jewish state being Israel, wouldn't you want to be there?

Israels diaspora is just as important to its existence as the IDF. Lobbying, control of narrative, and political pressure in the west is vital and needs "boots on the ground".

 

[Seven]

Israels diaspora is just as important to its existence as the IDF. Lobbying, control of narrative, and political pressure in the west is vital and needs "boots on the ground".

Well, it is. And I'm sure some do feel Israeli. But I am convinced there are Jews who do not.