Israeli-Palestinian conflict (89 Viewers)

[Seven]

You are assgining intent, not proving it.

If you're killing 1000 civilians a day, that does imply there is some intent. You never have hard proof of intent, unless someone admits to it. But at some point actions become inexplicable without that intent and then intent is assumed.

But still, if Israel's idea would be to deal a cruel blow by killing thousands of civilians and then back off again, that would not qualify as genocidal.

 

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[Post Ironic]

Intent doesnt have to be expressed. A modus operandi established over decades with the same result can establish intent through final result on the ground. Nothing more unequivocal than end result.

Palestinian Gaza population has gone up from 265000 in 1960 to 2.1 million in 2023. What modus operandi established over decades? The population has risen x8 in 60 years.

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The us didnt go in there to kill people to displace them permanently. Killing a 1000 civilians a day and destroying every single building is textbook definition of genocide.

What 1000 civilians a day? Assuming Hamas’ numbers are correct (the Gaza health ministry is Hamas run so hardly an organization to trust), and that none of those deaths are Hamas militants, the death toll is at ~8000 right now after 23 days. Your math is just a wee bit off if you’re claiming that equals 1000 civilians a day.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

You are assgining intent, not proving it.

If you're killing 1000 civilians a day, that does imply there is some intent. You never have hard proof of intent, unless someone admits to it. But at some point actions become inexplicable without that intent and then intent is assumed.

But still, if Israel's idea would be to deal a cruel blow by killing thousands of civilians and then back off again, that would not qualify as genocidal.

This movies has already played out before. Israel has genocided areas before and refused right of return to refugees. So intent there established post facto.

Israel adopting same tactics, we dont need to show explicit intent on recidivism.

 

[Tomice]

The us didnt go in there to kill people to displace them permanently. Killing a 1000 civilians a day and destroying every single building is textbook definition of genocide.

You are showing again that you will take numbers and information coming out only from official hamas sources as gospel. Just like you did before with the hospital bullshit.

Its is proven beyond doubt that they have and will fabricate anything.

On the other hand you are super critical of any information coming out of the Israeli side

 

[Seven]

Palestinian Gaza population has gone up from 265000 in 1960 to 2.1 million in 2023. What modus operandi established over decades? The population has risen x8 in 60 years.

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What 1000 civilians a day? Assuming Hamas’ numbers are correct (the Gaza health ministry is Hamas run so hardly an organization to trust), and that none of those deaths are Hamas militants, the death toll is at ~8000 right now after 23 days. Your math is just a wee bit off if you’re claiming that equals 1000 civilians a day.

You don't need complete annihilation to meet the criteria for genocide.

 

[Post Ironic]

If you're killing 1000 civilians a day, that does imply there is some intent. You never have hard proof of intent, unless someone admits to it. But at some point actions become inexplicable without that intent and then intent is assumed.

But still, if Israel's idea would be to deal a cruel blow by killing thousands of civilians and then back off again, that would not qualify as genocidal.

But they aren’t. Not even close. And that’s saying that Hamas is telling the truth and that a percentage of those deaths aren’t Hamas fighters.

8000/23 is 348 deaths per day.

 

[Seven]

But they aren’t. Not even close. And that’s saying that Hamas is telling the truth and that a percentage of those deaths aren’t Hamas fighters.

8000/23 is 348 deaths per day.

I'm not saying they are. What I mean is that you can infer intent from actions.

If I would be the prosecutor before the ICC, surely I wouldn't go for genocide at this point tbh.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Palestinian Gaza population has gone up from 265000 in 1960 to 2.1 million in 2023. What modus operandi established over decades? The population has risen x8 in 60 years.

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What 1000 civilians a day? Assuming Hamas’ numbers are correct (the Gaza health ministry is Hamas run so hardly an organization to trust), and that none of those deaths are Hamas militants, the death toll is at ~8000 right now after 23 days. Your math is just a wee bit off if you’re claiming that equals 1000 civilians a day.

Through the use of terror and several documented massacres half of the arab population was driven our of palestine in 48 never allowed to return. Sure that's not genocide.

 

[Seven]

This movies has already played out before. Israel has genocided areas before and refused right of return to refugees. So intent there established post facto.

Israel adopting same tactics, we dont need to show explicit intent on recidivism.

I'm not entirely convinced about genocide, because at first glance it would seem like Israel care more about the territories than the people. They might actively hurt civilians on those territories to gain ground or control them. But they are killing civilians because they want to destroy all Palestinian people. If they fucked off to Australia, Israel would not care.

 

[Post Ironic]

You don't need complete annihilation to meet the criteria for genocide.

Absolutely not, I agree. But as I said before, aside from when the conflict has gone hot with open warfare between IDF and militant groups, the Palestinian civilian death toll has been a couple hundred/year. If your definition of “intent to destroy… … in part” is a couple hundred/year of a population of millions, that makes for a rather over-the-top and ridiculous idea of what qualifies as genocide.

 

[Seven]

Through the use of terror and several documented massacres half of the arab population was driven our of palestine in 48 never allowed to return. Sure that's not genocide.

Driving people out of a country is not necessarily a genocide no.

But maybe we are getting too caught up in legal definitions, while the debate among laypeople should be more about morality.

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Absolutely not, I agree. But as I said before, aside from when the conflict has gone hot with open warfare between IDF and militant groups, the Palestinian civilian death toll has been a couple hundred/year. If your definition of “intent to destroy… … in part” is a couple hundred/year of a population of millions, that makes for a rather over-the-top and ridiculous idea of what qualifies as genocide.

You could make a case for some aspects that appear to be somewhat genocidal.

But to be honest I don't think it would hold up in court. And genocide, like it or not, is still a legal definition.

 

[Post Ironic]

Through the use of terror and several documented massacres half of the arab population was driven our of palestine in 48 never allowed to return. Sure that's not genocide.

You’re talking 1948? C’mon. That’s ridiculous. And let’s just ignore that Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Syria… all the surrounding Arab world tried to wipe the Israeli Jews off the map in 47-48. And had their own terror attacks and pogroms of Jews both in Israel and in Arab countries all over the Middle East and North Africa. And then systematically ethnically cleansed the Jews of their own nations. Which is exactly what Israel did with the Naqba. Ethnic cleansing. Not genocide.

You accuse others of black and white thinking on this, but you’re doing the exact same thing.

 

[U Picciriddu]

Well, it is. And I'm sure some do feel Israeli. But I am convinced there are Jews who do not.

And I know one very good. His statement is incorrect. My teacher when I was young is Jewish, we still are in contact every now and then. She’s Italian, not Israeli.

She might have in some form right to Israeli citizenship, but she’s a proud Italian.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I'm not entirely convinced about genocide, because at first glance it would seem like Israel care more about the territories than the people. They might actively hurt civilians on those territories to gain ground or control them. But they are killing civilians because they want to destroy all Palestinian people. If they fucked off to Australia, Israel would not care.

Well if the group ceases to exist in the territory it is genocide. There's no such thing in intl law as ethnic cleansing. Israel has already used similar methods to destroy communities and permanently displaced them through terror and killings. As for fucking off to australia hitler too sponsored the transport of jews to palestine, are to assume he wasnt genocidal?

 

[Seven]

Well if the group ceases to exist in the territory it is genocide. There's no such thing in intl law as ethnic cleansing. Israel has already used similar methods to destroy communities and permanently displaced them through terror and killings. As for fucking off to australia hitler too sponsored the transport of jews to palestine, are to assume he wasnt genocidal?

Well, no.

Genocide is:

For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Forcing them to move elsewhere is not genocide. It is wrong. But it is not genocide.

Hitler was genocidal, because his specific intent was to eradicate Jews.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

You’re talking 1948? C’mon. That’s ridiculous. And let’s just ignore that Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Syria… all the surrounding Arab world tried to wipe the Israeli Jews off the map in 47-48. And had their own terror attacks and pogroms of Jews both in Israel and in Arab countries all over the Middle East and North Africa. And then systematically ethnically cleansed the Jews of their own nations. Which is exactly what Israel did with the Naqba. Ethnic cleansing. Not genocide.

You accuse others of black and white thinking on this, but you’re doing the exact same thing.

48 establishes intent. Had the arabs won and killed off jews and drove em away that too would be a genocide. The reaction to nakba in arab countries was different from one country to another, some actually outlawed the exit of jews altogether and had to be paid off to let jews go on aliyah. But if you have numbers on how many were killed in each arab countries following the nakba please share them.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Well, no.

Genocide is:

For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Forcing them to move elsewhere is not genocide. It is wrong. But it is not genocide.

Hitler was genocidal, because his specific intent was to eradicate Jews.

Show me one document that says Hitler wanted to eradicate jews. Also read carefully what you posted.

 

[Seven]

Show me one document that says Hitler wanted to eradicate jews. Also read carefully what you posted.

Yes, I did read it carefully. It is not tied to a territory. It just isn't.

Again, I don't think laypeople should have this debate. We should be talking about morality. But if we are going to speak about legal concepts, we have to make sure that what we are saying is 100% correct. And genocide is a very high bar.

 

[Turk_Bianconero]

As a side note, all this videos with the title "watch it before it gets taken down" are just playing into the tired antisemtic trope of Jews controlling the media, those videos are never taken down lol.

Yeah, it is very not true that jews are controlling the media.

 

[Seven]

Yeah, it is very not true that jews are controlling the media.

Oh... my... God.

I just realized you hate Allegri because he looks Jewish. My mind is blown.