Israeli-Palestinian conflict (71 Viewers)

[U Picciriddu]

 

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[Ronn]

No, the Iranian people are in a bubble.

Regimes never hold any real control, that is why they fall. They work by instilling fear into a population that then decides whether the pros of a revolt outweigh the cons.

I'm not saying it would be easy for the Iranian people or wouldn't come at a great cost. But no regime is able to hold onto control indefinitely if they do not have some popular support. It just does not work.

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This is the playbook (in Iran): you empower an enforcer class typically from otherwise marginalized communities, and give them a life that is very normal to the most of us but it’s what they could only dream of. I estimate that number in Iran to be around 2m-2.5m. Thanks to oil revenue they can keep these people happy for the foreseeable future. You have the loyalty of these people for sure.
There have been 3 popular uprisings in Iran in past 6 years. In November 2019 1500 people were killed in the streets in a week. I’m sure you’ve heard about the one after Mahsa Amini was murdered. None of these have led to any meaningful change, and at some point people consider the human cost in their calculations.

 

[U Picciriddu]

No, the Iranian people are in a bubble.

Regimes never hold any real control, that is why they fall. They work by instilling fear into a population that then decides whether the pros of a revolt outweigh the cons.

I'm not saying it would be easy for the Iranian people or wouldn't come at a great cost. But no regime is able to hold onto control indefinitely if they do not have some popular support. It just does not work.

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Are there any recent examples where governments fell and where something positive came out of it?

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Israelis are killing gazans at a rate of a 1000 a day and this you think will get any sympathy? If you are ok with israels rationale that their genociding of Palestinians is on hamas, then anything that happens to jews henceforth is on israel.

 

[U Picciriddu]

Israelis are killing gazans at a rate of a 1000 a day and this you think will get any sympathy? If you are ok with israels rationale that their genociding of Palestinians is on hamas, then anything that happens to jews henceforth is on israel.

One doesn’t exclude to other.

Im not for violence in Gaza or collective punishment and I don’t see the situation there as a excuse to threaten Jews in Paris or in Dagestan as we’ve seen yesterday.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

One doesn’t exclude to other.

Im not for violence in Gaza or collective punishment and I don’t see the situation there as a excuse to threaten Jews in Paris or in Dagestan as we’ve seen yesterday.

No. Stay on course, stay consistent. Per the logic you presented(look back on your posts) to justify israels actions, your anger and indignation at these first world problems you depict as some great tragedy is squarely on israel and israelis who democratically elected a criminal genocidal regime that is killing civilians indiscriminately. Any blowback is on them.

 

[Seven]

This is the playbook (in Iran): you empower an enforcer class typically from otherwise marginalized communities, and give them a life that is very normal to the most of us but it’s what they could only dream of. I estimate that number in Iran to be around 2m-2.5m. Thanks to oil revenue they can keep these people happy for the foreseeable future. You have the loyalty of these people for sure.
There have been 3 popular uprisings in Iran in past 6 years. In November 2019 1500 people were killed in the streets in a week. I’m sure you’ve heard about the one after Mahsa Amini was murdered. None of these have led to any meaningful change, and at some point people consider the human cost in their calculations.

You mock me.

Twice now.

Yet your example literally confirms what I'm saying: any regime needs popular support or it will fall.

And we weren't talking about Iran. We were talking about Palestine. Hamas may or may not be tied to Iran, but it does not matter. Without enough popular support from Palestinians Hamas will not be able to control the area. And not even because of local resistance, but because of international pressure (in case a viable solution is presented) too.

Nothing that you say contradicts this. It just reenforces it. I would like you to read before you laugh.

 

[Tomice]

No. Stay on course, stay consistent. Per the logic you presented(look back on your posts) to justify israels actions, your anger and indignation at these first world problems you depict as some great tragedy is squarely on israel and israelis who democratically elected a criminal genocidal regime that is killing civilians indiscriminately. Any blowback is on them.

It is a false equivalency though, hamas is the elected and de facto leadership of gazans. Israel and Israeli goverments has nothing to do with dispora jews.

It is purest form of racism. And you seem to justify it.

 

[Seven]

It is a false equivalency though, hamas is the elected and de facto leadership of gazans. Israel and Israeli goverments has nothing to do with dispora jews.

It is purest form of racism. And you seem to justify it.

This is very questionable at this point.

 

[Tomice]

This is very questionable at this point.

What is?

 

[Seven]

What is?

Well, being elected once does not imply you can claim indefinitely you are elected.

That's not really how elections generally work.

 

[Ronn]

You mock me.

Twice now.

Yet your example literally confirms what I'm saying: any regime needs popular support or it will fall.

And we weren't talking about Iran. We were talking about Palestine. Hamas may or may not be tied to Iran, but it does not matter. Without enough popular support from Palestinians Hamas will not be able to control the area. And not even because of local resistance, but because of international pressure (in case a viable solution is presented) too.

Nothing that you say contradicts this. It just reenforces it. I would like you to read before you laugh.

It very much contradicts what’s you’re saying. Hamas can buy enough support by allocating means of subsistence to their limited number of supporters. That’s not “popular support”. That’s minority rule. A very small minority rule.
Hamas IS tied to Iran. There’s no debate there.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

It is a false equivalency though, hamas is the elected and de facto leadership of gazans. Israel and Israeli goverments has nothing to do with dispora jews.

It is purest form of racism. And you seem to justify it.

I am asking him to be consistent. And it's not a false equivalency, every jew in the world is a de facto israeli. Because israel is an ethnostate.

 

[Tomice]

Well, being elected once does not imply you can claim indefinitely you are elected.

That's not really how elections generally work.

True. But it is not like they voted in a movment that hid its intentions or decived them to think there will ever be another election.
I'm also sure they still will beat the PA if any election in gaza will take place in the near future

 

[Seven]

It very much contradicts what’s you’re saying. Hamas can buy enough support by allocating means of subsistence to their limited number of supporters. That’s not “popular support”. That’s minority rule. A very small minority rule.
Hamas IS tied to Iran. There’s no debate there.

No, they can't.

In the end numbers always win. Sure, you could 'enforce' it by killing anyone who resists. But if enough women resist, that would come down to killing your entire population. Then who's going to work for you?

I have the idea you think history began 50 years ago.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

True. But it is not like they voted in a movment that hid its intentions or decived them to think there will ever be another election.
I'm also sure they still will beat the PA if any election in gaza will take place in the near future

Something like 85% of qassam brigades is made up of people orphaned by israel. Of course they would vote hamas. I would too if i lived there and israel killed my parents.

 

[Seven]

True. But it is not like they voted in a movment that hid its intentions or decived them to think there will ever be another election.
I'm also sure they still will beat the PA if any election in gaza will take place in the near future

Well, they might.

And really it was only a sidenote from me. But just like equating the Israeli government with the Israeli people, I think it's wrong to equate Palestinians with Hamas. And even more so, because Hamas were elected ages ago. If they were elected yesterday, you could make the case that they have a mandate from the people. But today we really don't know if that's the case.

 

[Tomice]

I am asking him to be consistent. And it's not a false equivalency, every jew in the world is a de facto israeli. Because israel is an ethnostate.

It is a fair point, I disagree though. Not every jew wants, care or willing to be an Israeli, you are forcing it upon them for the fact they are jewish.

 

[Ronn]

No, they can't.

In the end numbers always win. Sure, you could 'enforce' it by killing anyone who resists. But if enough women resist, that would come down to killing your entire population. Then who's going to work for you?

I have the idea you think history began 50 years ago.

Yes time will solve all the problems. I can safely predict that Hamas won’t exist 1000 years from now.
We’re not talking about that time scale, are we?

 

[Seven]

It is a fair point, I disagree though. Not every jew wants, care or willing to be an Israeli, you are forcing it upon them for the fact they are jewish.

I disagree as well. They are two different things.

And I mean, isn't it partly evidenced by the diaspora? If you care that much about a Jewish state and in particular about that Jewish state being Israel, wouldn't you want to be there?