Israeli-Palestinian conflict (28 Viewers)

[GordoDeCentral]

It exists: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution

"No written evidence of Hitler ordering the Final Solution has ever been found to serve as a "smoking gun", and therefore, this one particular question remains unanswered"

 

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[GordoDeCentral]

It is not a case for genocide, no

If after this operation gaza is cleared off is it genocide?

 

[Tomice]

If after this operation gaza is cleared off is it genocide?

Cleared off what? People? Sure.

Never ever going to happen though

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"No written evidence of Hitler ordering the Final Solution has ever been found to serve as a "smoking gun", and therefore, this one particular question remains unanswered"

No need for absurdity. Death camps with gas Chambers are not a spontaneous occurrence

 

[Post Ironic]

"No written evidence of Hitler ordering the Final Solution has ever been found to serve as a "smoking gun", and therefore, this one particular question remains unanswered"

While this is true, it has little to do with the well-established and documented fact with a preponderance of evidence that Nazi Germany carried out a mass genocide of the Jewish population of Europe. Hitler personally ordering it or not is kinda meaningless in the debate as to whether Nazi germany carried out a campaign to exterminate the Jews. It did.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

[

Cleared off what? People? Sure.

Never ever going to happen though

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No need for absurdity. Death camps with gas Chambers are not a spontaneous occurrence

While this is true, it has little to do with the well-established and documented fact with a preponderance of evidence that Nazi Germany carried out a mass genocide of the Jewish population of Europe. Hitler personally ordering it or not is kinda meaningless in the debate as to whether Nazi germany carried out a campaign to exterminate the Jews. It did.

So you agree intent can inferred post facto without it being said. Good that's my point.

 

[U Picciriddu]

"No written evidence of Hitler ordering the Final Solution has ever been found to serve as a "smoking gun", and therefore, this one particular question remains unanswered"

Damn. T4 program maybe? Or authorisation of the SS dead squads, don’t have the time to read everything

 

[Tomice]

[



So you agree intent can inferred post facto without it being said. Good that's my point.

Not neccesserily.

Even if we agree you still have to show explicit intent in actions. Number of deaths in of itself is not a prof, unless we are talking demonstrably large numbers I don't think will ever happen in this conflict.

 

[Post Ironic]

[



So you agree intent can inferred post facto without it being said. Good that's my point.

That still doesn’t make the Naqba a genocide. Again, forcible expulsion is not a genocide. Ethnic cleansing may not have a legal definition, but that still doesn’t make it genocide. Nor are a smattering of isolated massacres perpetrated by both sides during a war enough evidence to claim genocide.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Not neccesserily.

Even if we agree you still have to show explicit intent in actions. Number of deaths in of itself is not a prof, unless we are talking demonstrably large numbers I don't think will ever happen in this conflict.

What's demonstrably large? And where do you get that from?

That still doesn’t make the Naqba a genocide. Again, forcible expulsion is not a genocide. Ethnic cleansing may not have a legal definition, but that still doesn’t make it genocide. Nor are a smattering of isolated massacres perpetrated by both sides during a war enough evidence to claim genocide.

Why? because you said so? Also isolated? The israelis systematically massacred enough people to drive away permanently half the indigenous population in 48. They even brag about it to this day. By definition of intl law that is genocide.

 

[Post Ironic]

What's demonstrably large? And where do you get that from?



Why? because you said so? Also isolated? The israelis systematically massacred enough people to drive away permanently half the indigenous population in 48. They even brag about it to this day. By definition of intl law that is genocide.

Prove that they systematically massacred a large part of the Palestinian population in ‘48. Because I call bullshit. The “in part” from the above definition doesn’t mean what you think it does. In part doesn’t mean killing 0.1% of the population group. C’mon.

There were a dozen or so massacres of civilians in the ‘48 war. And none were anywhere near big enough for the totality to be called genocide.

 

[Seven]

Why is it so important that is genocide?

There are other crimes too.

One of my professors was a judge at the ICC. She always said you have to take into account that gathering evidence is very hard and that you are always been two opposing sides. So genocide will usually be far too hard to prove.

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[GordoDeCentral]

Prove that they systematically massacred a large part of the Palestinian population in ‘48. Because I call bullshit. The “in part” from the above definition doesn’t mean what you think it does. In part doesn’t mean killing 0.1% of the population group. C’mon.

There were a dozen or so massacres of civilians in the ‘48 war. And none were anywhere near big enough for the totality to be called genocide.

Are we going to use intl law definition? If so, there's no such thing as big enough in the definition. If the killing resulted in the destruction of the ethnic group(partly, the partly here is 50%) and its erasure ( they can never go back) it is genocide per the definition.

Now if we gonna ball park it, then there's no sense in discussing.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Why is it so important that is genocide?

There are other crimes too.

One of my professors was a judge at the ICC. She always said you have to take into account that gathering evidence is very hard and that you are always been two opposing sides. So genocide will usually be far too hard to prove.

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You are right, i called it ethnic cleansing too up until last week when i found out there's no legal framework for that. It seems that is just PR euphemism for genocide.

 

[Post Ironic]

Are we going to use intl law definition? If so, there's no such thing as big enough in the definition. If the killing resulted in the destruction of the ethnic group(partly, the partly here is 50%) and its erasure ( they can never go back) it is genocide per the definition.

Now if we gonna ball park it, then there's no sense in discussing.

There isn't a point. We disagree. What we consider the threshold for genocide is different. The 1948 expulsion of Palestinians is not a genocide at all in my books. It did not destroy an ethnic group, nor did it erase them. It moved them. And forcible expulsion/population displacement is nowhere in that definition of genocide. If they had wiped out 10% of the population while doing this? You’d have a genocide. But they didn’t, not even close. The displaced group has kept its language, religion, culture, etc. Were there war crimes committed? Absolutely. Doesn’t make it genocide.

 

[Tomice]

What's demonstrably large? And where do you get that from?

Demonstrebly large.

Over 300k civilians in Syria in a single decade is demonstrably large.
Over 300k civilians in Yemen in a single decade is demonstrably large.

Around 50k including militants in over 70 years is not.

The entire israeli-arab conflict is rated 49th By amount of casualties in any conflict since 1950.
On both sides. And it's the longest lasting one.

How's that in prespective?

Why? because you said so? Also isolated? The israelis systematically massacred enough people to drive away permanently half the indigenous population in 48. They even brag about it to this day. By definition of intl law that is genocide.

Israeli didnt systematically massacred. And it wasn't the sole reason for the flight of Palestinians in 48'.

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You are right, i called it ethnic cleansing too up until last week when i found out there's no legal framework for that. It seems that is just PR euphemism for genocide.

So let's just use a different well defined term that so happens help to shape a false narrative.

 

[Seven]

Demonstrebly large.

Over 300k civilians in Syria in a single decade is demonstrably large.
Over 300k civilians in Yemen in a single decade is demonstrably large.

Around 50k including militants in over 70 years is not.




Israeli didnt systematically massacred. And it wasn't the sole reason for the flight of Palestinians in 48'.

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So let's just use a different well defined term that so happens help to shape a false narrative.

It's a term you can't use lightly that's for sure.

I think maybe we should refrain from heavy legal terms and assess all of this from a moral point of view.

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[Post Ironic]

It's a term you can't use lightly that's for sure.

I think maybe we should refrain from heavy legal terms and assess all of this from a moral point of view.

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And by any measure current Israeli actions are morally bankrupt. I understand why they are happening, and that some sort of response to Hamas is necessary, but it doesn’t justify this or make it morally good. And personally, with states like Saudi looking to normalize relations and growing more western (however slow that is happening), I have to imagine to the best course of action for Israel, in the long run, would be to ramp up pressure on the Palestinians and Arab world by presenting another 2008 Olmert style offer.

 

[Ronn]

 

[ALC]

don’t see two state solution being considered a possibility by any one there

Looks like an all out war, “may the victor take the spoils” kind

 

[Seven]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...-star-of-david-until-countries-condemn-hamas/

This guy is the perfect PR man for Hamas.