Israeli-Palestinian conflict (46 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,229
I find it amusing when people make the argument that the protests and rallies are just pro-Palestine and no one is pro-Hamas/promoting the destruction of the Israeli nation.

And then I see things like this happening and getting cheered just over in Vancouver.



Disgusting.
I can only speak for what I see and I see no one in my environment or on my insta or whatever promoting Hamas.

All I see is people who find it difficult that Israel imposes such suffering on Palestinian civilians. And they are right.

This is going to set Israel back for a long time to come.

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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,229
It's a valid argument that I can agree with but the last part.

First you are right but I don't think it's neccesserily pretending with an intent as you my conclude, some of it maybe. israelis are captives of this mentality, in part due to being a persecuted minority for over a millenia and for still viewing the conflict in it's broader sense as an arab-israeli one. It is what it is unfortunately and we do "use" it, I just think we really do have it, for an outsider looking in it may seem crazy I understand.

I also completely understand people supporting the underdog, would have probably done the same In their shoes. There is a reason Robin Hood is such a classic tale, I think most good people are brought up to want to help the weak and unfortunate, it a buetifully human thing.

On the last part, people tend to forget, not consider or purposely ignore that Israel is like any other democratic country were politicians will do anything to stay in power, goverments come and go, public opinion and support ebb and flow and policies and decisions are not set in stone. Also Israelis are not special, the common idiot is still the common idiot who still gets to vote.

I agree this government gains more from the conflict, bibi can't lead any other type of government and will lose his remaining base even with any vague 2 state solution suggestion. But the peace process died not because of him, it died due to the bad Palestinian decisions between 95' to 08' imo, we can disagree who at fault but my point is that bibi used that to get elected and kept using that to get re-elected.

Please don't equate what this and other governments under Bibi want and what Israel as a country wants. This is the dynamic nature of democratic countries. The fact that we do badly now is not neccesserily a testament that we will always when the other side is also willing. The stage for restarting the peace process is not there this moment, or the last 10 years sadly. hopefully after this Bibi will be gone and he will, that day will come again.
Great post.

You are right.

It would be easy to portray Israelis as evil or even unkind. They are no such thing. They are most likely not that different from Palestinians. We tend to forget that there are normal people on both sides and that they are the vast majority.

But my main idea is that the Israeli government will have some benefit of keeping the conflict ongoing, because nothing that they do is constructive towards a solution. And they must realise as much.

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Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
41,917
I can only speak for what I see and I see no one in my environment or on my insta or whatever promoting Hamas.

All I see is people who find it difficult that Israel imposes such suffering on Palestinian civilians. And they are right.

This is going to set Israel back for a long time to come.

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I posted the York University Student Unions’ statement above. This PhD lady at a rally in Vancouver getting cheered for calling October 7th brilliant and amazing. The crowds in Sydney chanting “gas the Jews” weeks ago. The use of “From the River to the Sea” at all these rallies which implies the destruction of the state of Israel. Academics and students all over being pro-Hamas because “white colonial settler states” and “decolonization.” People tearing down posters of the Hamas held hostages. It’s not as rare as you are making it out to be.

Israel should be criticized for what it’s doing/has done. So should Palestine. Which has been part of the group of Islamic peoples/nations attacking Israel and its right to exist since the 40s. The PLO was founded as a terrorist org in 1964 with the express goal of eliminating the Israeli nation. This was before the West Bank was occupied. Its acts of terrorism and the aggression of surrounding Arab nations was the reason for the 1967 war and the occupation of the West Bank in the first place.

While this doesn’t excuse Israeli crimes today, let’s stop pretending that the Palestinian people and surrounding Arab nations haven’t been attacking Israel since it came to be.
 
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Jun 16, 2020
10,963

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I find it amusing when people make the argument that the protests and rallies are just pro-Palestine and no one is pro-Hamas/promoting the destruction of the Israeli nation.

And then I see things like this happening and getting cheered just over in Vancouver.



Disgusting.
Pro-Hamas sentiment here aswel. Its not the standard but it happens. This shit worries me a lot

 
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BayernFan

Senior Member
Feb 17, 2016
6,833
I posted the York University Student Unions’ statement above. This PhD lady at a rally in Vancouver getting cheered for calling October 7th brilliant and amazing. The crowds in Sydney chanting “gas the Jews” weeks ago. The use of “From the River to the Sea” at all these rallies which implies the destruction of the state of Israel. Academics and students all over being pro-Hamas because “white colonial settler states” and “decolonization.” People tearing down posters of the Hamas held hostages. It’s not as rare as you are making it out to be.

Israel should be criticized for what it’s doing/has done. So should Palestine. Which has been part of the group of Islamic peoples/nations attacking Israel and its right to exist since the 40s. The PLO was founded as a terrorist org in 1964 with the express goal of eliminating the Israeli nation. This was before the West Bank was occupied. Its acts of terrorism and the aggression of surrounding Arab nations was the reason for the 1967 war and the occupation of the West Bank in the first place.

While this doesn’t excuse Israeli crimes today, let’s stop pretending that the Palestinian people haven’t been attacking Israel since it came to be.
Spot on. :tup:

Many pro pallys are oblivious to those historic events. They often say Hamas wasn’t born in a vacuum, but the same goes for the Israeli stance. When you’re sorrounded by neighbours who wants to see you eradicated it’s quite difficult not to become disturbed yourself.
 
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Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,597
What a patronizing statement to make.

You believe Palestinians don't care more about their everyday problems than the eradication of Israel or whatever Hamas wants to happen?

Palestinians are people. People want food, security and opportunity to better themselves. If that happens without Hamas, they'll be happy.

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Of course they are people and they care about their well being. Unfortunately they are also completely powerless (at least Palestinians in Gaza) since Hamas has taken them hostage for their “resistance”. If they had control over their own destiny they never would’ve allowed Hamas to store and launch rockets from schools, hotels, and hospitals.
The source of Hamas’ power is not Palestinian people, but Iran’s equally brutal regime. That’s who they respond to.
 
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AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
29,685
Mission impossible? Biden says Mideast leaders must consider a two-state solution after the war ends

WASHINGTON (AP) — As the 3-week-old Israel-Hamas war enters what Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says could be a “long and difficult” new stage, President Joe Biden is calling on Israeli and Arab leaders to think hard about their eventual postwar reality.

It’s one, he argues, where finally finding agreement on a long-sought two-state solution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict should be a priority.

“There’s no going back to the status quo as it stood on Oct. 6,” Biden told reporters, referring to the day before Hamas militants attacked Israel and set off the latest war. The White House says Biden conveyed the same message directly to Netanyahu during a telephone call this past week.

“It also means that when this crisis is over, there has to be a vision of what comes next, and in our view it has to be a two-state solution,” Biden said.

The push for a two-state solution — one in which Israel would co-exist with an independent Palestinian state — has eluded U.S. presidents and Middle East diplomats for decades. It’s been put on the back burner since the last American-led effort at peace talks collapsed in 2014 amid disagreements on Israeli settlements, the release of Palestinian prisoners and other issues.

Palestinian statehood is something that Biden rarely addressed in the early going of his administration. During his visit to the West Bank last year, Biden said the “ground is not ripe” for new attempts to reach a permanent peace even as he reiterated to Palestinians the long-held U.S. support for statehood.

Now, at a moment of heightened concern that the Israel-Hamas war could spiral into a broader regional conflict, Biden has begun to emphasize that once the bombing and shooting stop, working toward a Palestinian state should no longer be ignored.

Until recently, Biden had put far more emphasis on what his administration saw as the achievable ambition of normalizing relations between Israel and its Arab neighbors than on restarting peace talks.

Even his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, in a lengthy essay that was written shortly before the Oct. 7 attack and described Biden’s global foreign policy efforts made no mention of Palestinian statehood. In an updated version of the Foreign Affairs essay posted online, Sullivan wrote that the administration was “committed to a two-state solution.” White House officials also say the normalization talks have always included significant proposals to benefit the Palestinians.

There is no shortage of obstacles in the way of Biden’s postwar vision. An independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza is viewed as a nonstarter by Israel’s far-right government. An ineffectual Palestinian Authority controls parts of the West Bank and has little credibility with the population it governs. Meantime, a looming U.S. presidential election could make Biden a less-than-ideal mediator in 2024.

Aaron David Miller, who served as an adviser on Middle East issues to Democratic and Republican administrations, said Biden’s recent emphasis on a two-state solution was an “aspirational talking point.”

“The odds are very, very low,” he said. “It’s essentially mission impossible.”

Still, Biden in recent days has been raising the issue in his conversations with fellow leaders. Biden and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi during a Sunday phone call discussed setting the conditions “for a durable and sustainable peace in the Middle East to include the establishment of a Palestinian state,” according to the White House.

The call for a two-state solution arose Saturday at the Republican Jewish Coalition summit in Las Vegas, where GOP presidential contenders criticized Biden’s Israel policy and what they saw as a failure by Democrats to sufficiently condemn antisemitism across the United States. One presidential hopeful, biotech entrepreneur Vivek Ramaswamy, said Israel should feel free to abandon “the myth of a two-state solution.”

The White House is cognizant that Biden’s calls for a two-state solution are ambitious and are perhaps not achievable in the near term, according to a White House official who was not authorized to publicly discuss internal deliberations and spoke on condition of anonymity. There is also a recognition that the Netanyahu government, facing public backlash for failing to prevent the Hamas attack, is focused on its operations against Hamas and is not giving much consideration to Biden’s talk of Palestinian statehood.

Still, Biden believes it is important for him and his team to convey “hope” and make clear that his administration backs a Palestinian state, the official said.

Dennis Ross, a negotiator in the peace process in both the George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton administrations, said it is important to start planning for down the road even though there is no end in sight for the current conflict.

“You can’t go back to the point where you can ignore the Palestinians as an issue,” Ross said. “It’s not hopeless. When you get beyond this, it’s not hopeless.”

The renewed calls for Palestinian statehood also come as Palestinian American groups, Muslim advocacy organizations and some fellow Democrats have expressed frustration that Biden continues to express full-throated support for Israel at a time when the Palestinian death count is mounting and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza worsening.

“This is not about someone’s faith,” said White House National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said. “It’s about finding a future for the Middle East that is more cooperative, more stable, more secure, where Israel’s more integrated into the region and we’re not giving up on it.”

Biden has expressed concern about deteriorating conditions for innocent civilians in Gaza. But his insistence that he will not dictate how Israeli forces carry out their operations could complicate his ability to maintain credibility as an evenhanded broker. U.S. Muslim leaders, at a private White House meeting with Biden and top aides this past week, urged the president to call for a cease-fire.

Participants also told Biden that his silence on what they perceive as collective punishment by Israel against innocent Gaza civilians was undercutting his standing with Arab Americans and Muslims, including in states that could have a big impact on the 2024 election.

They also expressed their concern to Biden over his statement that he has “no confidence” in the Gaza death count because it is tabulated by the Hamas-run Health Ministry. The ministry says more than 8,000 people, mostly women and minors, have been killed in Gaza. More than 1,400 people have died on the Israeli side, mainly civilians killed during the initial Hamas onslaught.

Rami Nashashibi, the founder of the Inner City Muslim Action Network in Chicago and a participant in the meeting, said he told Biden that his comments about the death toll in Gaza came off as “dehumanizing.” Nashashibi added that he and the other participants told the president that his comments were particularly unsettling because Biden, throughout his term, has demonstrated profound empathy with suffering people.

“I raised that with him very directly, and others in the room also did so in a way that I think was heard and acknowledged,” Nashashibi said.

The renewed push for statehood could be pointed to by Biden as a sign of his commitment to Palestinian sovereignty. But his handling of the Mideast turmoil is already threatening to be a drag on his reelection prospects in 2024, and any progress that Biden can make toward a two-state solution is likely to require a second term.

Some Democratic Party officials have become concerned his handling of the war could dent Biden’s and the party’s standing with Arab American voters as well as a younger voters who polls show have greater sympathy for Palestinian concerns than the party’s older and more centrist voters.

A senior Michigan Democratic Party official said Biden’s handling of the war has already emerged in the state as a “huge” problem and could become more vexing if the war stretches on and the death toll in Gaza continues to rise. The official spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive party concerns.

Biden was expected to face a tight 2024 race in the state even before the war. He won Michigan by less than 3 percentage points in 2020, and Republican Donald Trump beat Democrat Hillary Clinton in the state by 0.3% in 2016. More than 300,000 people of Middle Eastern or North African ancestry live in Michigan.

“Even if he’s hurt to the tune of a few points, he’s already got a very close race,” said longtime Michigan pollster Bernie Porn.

:xfingers: The only way to have any semblance of peace.
 

duranfj

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2015
8,767
@Tomice

This post hits a lot of what I’m thinking lately.
We had the York University student unions release statements immediately following the Hamas attack stating basically that “this is what decolonization looks like” and it was “a strong act of resistance” and outright supporting Hamas and blaming Israel 100% for the 10/7 attack. Even more amusing/sad is that expressed support for such violent attacks also happening in Canada/USA by the indigenous.

It’s somewhat mind-boggling when I get told that everyone is just Pro-Palestinians, pro-two state solution, etc. Because half of the statements put out by these student groups, a very vocal (probably) minority at these protests are overtly and loudly pro-Hamas.

For those who doubt the above, here’s the link to the York University student Union statement. There are a lot of young people in academia voicing this trash.

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...00/Statement+of+Solidarity+with+Palestine.pdf

“Settler-colonial states like so-called Canada” :sergio: :lol2:

These kids are fucking idiots.
I have been trying to listen and understand how they (college organizations) can actually argue a logical reasoning for their behavior and it’s actually shocking how clueless they sound… I understand that universities have been dominated by extreme left dogma for a long time but supporting a terrorist group is just so against westerners foundations that It’s mind blowing

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So still there are people out there who are defending genocide against Palestinians , no wonder Hitler had supporters too !
Who is supporting genocide? Who actually said that support the killing of civilians?

I believe that the definitions of genocide start with targeting civilians, can you identify who is doing that? Who is willing to sacrifice or even kill their owns to force their agenda? If the answer is not obvious please try to read history books and no use Traditional Media or Social Network Russia Propaganda as the source of information. If you think anyone who does Guerilla tactics is innocent by definition, if you think anyone who use terrorist is a victim by definition, history will show you that’s as false as it can be
 
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Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,229
Of course they are people and they care about their well being. Unfortunately they are also completely powerless (at least Palestinians in Gaza) since Hamas has taken them hostage for their “resistance”. If they had control over their own destiny they never would’ve allowed Hamas to store and launch rockets from schools, hotels, and hospitals.
The source of Hamas’ power is not Palestinian people, but Iran’s equally brutal regime. That’s who they respond to.
People are not powerless towards regimes.

They almost always hold all the power without realizing it, simply because it is impossible to truly control millions of individuals. Regimes work by instilling fear and then operate on that fear.

And Hamas is even different from other regimes in the sense that they have no real control over the land they supposedly rule over. Even if Hamas has some military power, it is seems to be limited to guerilla warfare. If it weren't, they could have defended territories in a much stronger way. Whether they have a true police force is also questionable. Their finances too have foreign sources and Hamas seem to depend on the goodwill (or bad will) of others.

If there is a consensus that would be accepted by the broad Palestinian public and by Israel, I don't believe Hamas is strong enough as an organization to fight it. Especially because at that point you'd have an international community focused on eradicating Hamas. It would most likely become a fringe terrorist organization.
 

Ronn

#TeamPestoFlies
May 3, 2012
19,597
People are not powerless towards regimes.

They almost always hold all the power without realizing it, simply because it is impossible to truly control millions of individuals. Regimes work by instilling fear and then operate on that fear.

And Hamas is even different from other regimes in the sense that they have no real control over the land they supposedly rule over. Even if Hamas has some military power, it is seems to be limited to guerilla warfare. If it weren't, they could have defended territories in a much stronger way. Whether they have a true police force is also questionable. Their finances too have foreign sources and Hamas seem to depend on the goodwill (or bad will) of others.

If there is a consensus that would be accepted by the broad Palestinian public and by Israel, I don't believe Hamas is strong enough as an organization to fight it. Especially because at that point you'd have an international community focused on eradicating Hamas. It would most likely become a fringe terrorist organization.
Those first few sentences is why I said you're in your own bubble. Tell that to the Iranian people. I don't wanna get into the details of how they do it, but if Islamic republic managed to control a vast country with 80m population controlling a city is not that difficult.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
38,229
Those first few sentences is why I said you're in your own bubble. Tell that to the Iranian people. I don't wanna get into the details of how they do it, but if Islamic republic managed to control a vast country with 80m population controlling a city is not that difficult.
No, the Iranian people are in a bubble.

Regimes never hold any real control, that is why they fall. They work by instilling fear into a population that then decides whether the pros of a revolt outweigh the cons.

I'm not saying it would be easy for the Iranian people or wouldn't come at a great cost. But no regime is able to hold onto control indefinitely if they do not have some popular support. It just does not work.

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