Israeli-Palestinian conflict (23 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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It's a very good or rather well defined argument against the state of Israel and I can relate to Palestinians feeling that way but not Arabs, Arabs choosing to keep resenting Israel and not deal with it in any constructive way is the thing I don't get.
However you turn it the state of Israel is a fact and final, the reasons, will and the historical context for it's formation were there, legitimate (imo but I agree it's debatable) and most importantly it already happened, the whole Arab world tried to prevent it back then as well and couldn't do it, there was enough space for two states back then as there is now but they couldn't accept it and lost, where is the Arab world responsibility for the Palestinians they put into this mess? They promised them the all of Israel and gave them the finger when they lost and left them to their own devices.
I think a lot of the hate Israel gets comes from the Arab world denial of it's past mistakes and refusal to shoulder the blame for using the Palestinians as pawns, back then and to this day.
Going back to your argument there are only two things I don't agree with, the first is that Israel is a democratic state and it seems you are mixing two different things as Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens and have their own governing body. Even when going along what your are trying to suggest is not accurate, Israeli-Arabs vote, enjoy social benefits, free education, freedom of speech and many other benefits they wouldn't enjoy in many of our neighboring countries and are an integral part of the democratic process in the country. unfortunately I would still honestly say they are second class citizens but that is a whole other debate as to why but it's in no way related to an institutional/democratic thing, hopefully that will also change soon.
The second one is that Belgium is a country while Palestine wasn't. I hope they will be one day as I'm a firm believer in national self determination although looking at the pole on top of the page many people around here don't, isn't that funny?
However you turn it the state of Israel is a fact and final, the reasons, will and the historical context for it's formation were there, legitimate (imo but I agree it's debatable) and most importantly it already happened, the whole Arab world tried to prevent it back then as well and couldn't do it, there was enough space for two states back then as there is now but they couldn't accept it and lost, where is the Arab world responsibility for the Palestinians they put into this mess? They promised them the all of Israel and gave them the finger when they lost and left them to their own devices.
I think a lot of the hate Israel gets comes from the Arab world denial of it's past mistakes and refusal to shoulder the blame for using the Palestinians as pawns, back then and to this day.
Going back to your argument there are only two things I don't agree with, the first is that Israel is a democratic state and it seems you are mixing two different things as Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens and have their own governing body. Even when going along what your are trying to suggest is not accurate, Israeli-Arabs vote, enjoy social benefits, free education, freedom of speech and many other benefits they wouldn't enjoy in many of our neighboring countries and are an integral part of the democratic process in the country. unfortunately I would still honestly say they are second class citizens but that is a whole other debate as to why but it's in no way related to an institutional/democratic thing, hopefully that will also change soon.
The second one is that Belgium is a country while Palestine wasn't. I hope they will be one day as I'm a firm believer in national self determination although looking at the pole on top of the page many people around here don't, isn't that funny?
did israel exist as country in the past?There was never a country called israel that was run by and belonged to the jews!Ireland or Scotland or even Montenegro Ukraine were not countries until independence you cant create a country based on a religion or just a race or Ethnicity in the other land today but israel wants to do it!!
with all due respect, israel is by definition an apartheid state whose existence is a big fuck you to the world and its laws, how else can you explain the encouraging of aliyah(people who have never had any link to the land) and the refusal to negotiate the return of 1948 refugees(people who can trace their lineage for several generations)
you are right though, israel is a fait accompli and arabs needs to deal with it so to speak, but it is imo nowhere near a democracy and worse socially than its neighbors.
you are right though, israel is a fait accompli and arabs needs to deal with it so to speak, but it is imo nowhere near a democracy and worse socially than its neighbors.
Got to love the arrogant, deluded superiority some of you Europeans still cling to. not to mention the hypocrisy.
Beside Germany and the UK you guys are just not relevant anymore to global politics, the world has moved on and Europe is refusing to accept it's no longer the center of it (let alone places like Belgium
..)You may not agree with some of the things Israel does (even I don't, a lot) but we are not some backwater, failing country who needs your guidance and approval to survive and prosper, that's what we have the Americans for
Israel, are a bunch of fucking assholes. They got a horrible thing going in their history, and they have been abusing it to get whatever they want and be allowed to do whatever they want with palestine people. They are the worst nation on this planet today,as the years pass on, the feeling of sorry for what happened in 40-45 is fading despite having visited several concentration camps reminding the horror. But they are giving palestina horror aswel for decades now. A lesser horror, but one that doesnt just last a few years, but decades.
I'm not interested in waging war. The EU is about handeling things the diplomatic way. Belgium has its headquarter and kinda serves as a neutral place where france and germany can settle their differences. When Israel goes out and does or says retarded shit, we shouldnt just let that happen. We should speak up and call out their pathetic bullshit. We can threaten them with embargo's, and its economy absolutely doesnt have the resillience the Russian one does. We arent bound to the jewis lobby like the americans are.
Israel thrives. They arent a failling country that needs guidance and approval. They are just some false nation. Good for them. When they pull shit, we should stand up and call out their shit.
When Russia legitly took back the Krim, we went beserk cause we failed out american induced attempt to take ukraine out of the soviet influence zone. We have had 3 rounds of embargo's so far.
Russia is a billion times more powerfull then Israel, and we decided to stand up for bullshit reasons.
So why, cant we stand up when Israel pulls bullshit that is endless times worse ?
Yeah, because holocaust. Fuck Israel. that is all. unlike seven, i'm not going middle ground. Fuck israel. Fuck em hard.
I don't and will never agree with that first statement, you are diminishing the meaning of the word apartheid imo. The issue of encouraging aliyah is totally beside the point and has no relevance, many countries do the same so whats makes it any different? just ask yourself if a some other fictional country like Kurdistan exited and did the same would you criticize it then?
The refusal to negotiate the right of return is a very complicated matter and one that makes me feel very conflicted about . Honestly, I can't give a short answer that would make me look good or for you to relate to or accept but the bottom line is that we will never let happen and it would be better for both sides if they moved on (if they want peace, even a cold one), sorry but that's the realty of it in short, we as a country are justifying it to ourselves as they lost we won situation when in reality we both lost, the world has no rules.
We are somewhere near democracy though, we tick all the right boxes and it makes your earlier statement of being apartheid state even less grounded imo. even the most hawk Arab parliament member in Israel will admit it's a democracy, you might not like it but it truly, kinda is. this has nothing to do with Arab citizens being treated as second class, it's a burring issue for the Israeli society IMO one that I have a firm opinion about ,hopefully it will only get better. Being a good democratic state also takes time, we are a functioning democracy for less then 60 years, even in the US black people only got to actually vote around the 1940's ( BTW Arab citizens got their right to vote in our scroll of independence ).
We as a country were never afforded a grace period, a time without a threat to our existence, try to imagine what it does to the "psychic" of a whole country if it's any excuse, it's tragic but that's us and that's also unfortunately why we are just making shit up has we go, both countries and it's peoples need time to mature into themselves and where they want to be as a country and a society. It just might take a little longer then we all hope for.
Touched a nerve there didn't I ?
like Kurdistan exited and did the same would you criticize it then? The refusal to negotiate the right of return is a very complicated matter and one that makes me feel very conflicted about . Honestly, I can't give a short answer that would make me look good or for you to relate to or accept but the bottom line is that we will never let happen and it would be better for both sides if they moved on (if they want peace, even a cold one), sorry but that's the realty of it in short, we as a country are justifying it to ourselves as they lost we won situation when in reality we both lost, the world has no rules.
We are somewhere near democracy though, we tick all the right boxes and it makes your earlier statement of being apartheid state even less grounded imo. even the most hawk Arab parliament member in Israel will admit it's a democracy, you might not like it but it truly, kinda is. this has nothing to do with Arab citizens being treated as second class, it's a burring issue for the Israeli society IMO one that I have a firm opinion about ,hopefully it will only get better. Being a good democratic state also takes time, we are a functioning democracy for less then 60 years, even in the US black people only got to actually vote around the 1940's ( BTW Arab citizens got their right to vote in our scroll of independence ).
We as a country were never afforded a grace period, a time without a threat to our existence, try to imagine what it does to the "psychic" of a whole country if it's any excuse, it's tragic but that's us and that's also unfortunately why we are just making shit up has we go, both countries and it's peoples need time to mature into themselves and where they want to be as a country and a society. It just might take a little longer then we all hope for.
Touched a nerve there didn't I ?
I don't and will never agree with that first statement, you are diminishing the meaning of the word apartheid imo. The issue of encouraging aliyah is totally beside the point and has no relevance, many countries do the same so whats makes it any different? just ask yourself if a some other fictional country like Kurdistan exited and did the same would you criticize it then?
The refusal to negotiate the right of return is a very complicated matter and one that makes me feel very conflicted about . Honestly, I can't give a short answer that would make me look good or for you to relate to or accept but the bottom line is that we will never let happen and it would be better for both sides if they moved on (if they want peace, even a cold one), sorry but that's the realty of it in short, we as a country are justifying it to ourselves as they lost we won situation when in reality we both lost, the world has no rules.
We are somewhere near democracy though, we tick all the right boxes and it makes your earlier statement of being apartheid state even less grounded imo. even the most hawk Arab parliament member in Israel will admit it's a democracy, you might not like it but it truly is. this has nothing to do with Arab citizens being treated as second class, it's a burring issue for the Israeli society IMO one that I have a firm opinion about ,hopefully it will only get better. Being a good democratic state also takes time, we are a functioning democracy for less then 60 years, even in the US black people only got to actually vote around the 1940's ( BTW Arab citizens got their right to vote in our scroll of independence ).
We,as a country were never afforded a grace period, we are just making shit up has we go hopefully in a somewhat positive direction.
Touched a nerve there didn't I ?
like Kurdistan exited and did the same would you criticize it then? The refusal to negotiate the right of return is a very complicated matter and one that makes me feel very conflicted about . Honestly, I can't give a short answer that would make me look good or for you to relate to or accept but the bottom line is that we will never let happen and it would be better for both sides if they moved on (if they want peace, even a cold one), sorry but that's the realty of it in short, we as a country are justifying it to ourselves as they lost we won situation when in reality we both lost, the world has no rules.
We are somewhere near democracy though, we tick all the right boxes and it makes your earlier statement of being apartheid state even less grounded imo. even the most hawk Arab parliament member in Israel will admit it's a democracy, you might not like it but it truly is. this has nothing to do with Arab citizens being treated as second class, it's a burring issue for the Israeli society IMO one that I have a firm opinion about ,hopefully it will only get better. Being a good democratic state also takes time, we are a functioning democracy for less then 60 years, even in the US black people only got to actually vote around the 1940's ( BTW Arab citizens got their right to vote in our scroll of independence ).
We,as a country were never afforded a grace period, we are just making shit up has we go hopefully in a somewhat positive direction.
Touched a nerve there didn't I ?
and no nerves touched, as calm and lucid as can be.
Touched a nerve there didn't I ?
Well, The EU has now trown 3 rounds of embargo's against russia. Russia, wich dwarfs Israel in terms of economy and military. Based on what, they took back a province they had given away, with a large majority of russians ?
Israel is commiting crimes against humanity in the ghaza, MUCH worse then what russia does, and europe doesnt even speak a word.
That, touched a nerve.
They can legtly have Germany by the balls. I totally understand if the germans arent going to explain all the things they do to condome the nazi regime, and how they are a shame to their history. Sure, i get that, show some guilt regardless to make sure people see it.
So what is the excuse of france, belgium, holland, United kingdom ? They all lost thousands in the war against the nazi's. They had people hiding jews from the gestapo. They actually helped the jews. SO why shouldnt they be able to speak now ? Why do we have to be remotely guilty of a nation against the EU lost alot more lives ?
None.
I see Putin is having the americans by the balls by what they do in Syria. Wich from a far standpoint, seems better then what americans are doing.
Good Putin. When you are done annoying the americans in Syria, be a peach and go visit the Ghaza on the way back. Make some threats about what happens if Israel military vehicles copycat russia in beeing in places they arent supposed to be. Then show those retards from hamas how do some proper artillery shelling, trow in some SS-22 sunburns with the 200kiloton nuclear payload. See if they change their minds.
Meanwhile, notice Obama about your huge nuclear arsenal in case they feel like responding. See how the american population values their own live over some zionists.
So what is the excuse of france, belgium, holland, United kingdom ? They all lost thousands in the war against the nazi's. They had people hiding jews from the gestapo. They actually helped the jews. SO why shouldnt they be able to speak now ? Why do we have to be remotely guilty of a nation against the EU lost alot more lives ?
None.
I see Putin is having the americans by the balls by what they do in Syria. Wich from a far standpoint, seems better then what americans are doing.
Good Putin. When you are done annoying the americans in Syria, be a peach and go visit the Ghaza on the way back. Make some threats about what happens if Israel military vehicles copycat russia in beeing in places they arent supposed to be. Then show those retards from hamas how do some proper artillery shelling, trow in some SS-22 sunburns with the 200kiloton nuclear payload. See if they change their minds.
Meanwhile, notice Obama about your huge nuclear arsenal in case they feel like responding. See how the american population values their own live over some zionists.
i think fred answered the kurdistan example pretty well, and theres no doubt in my mind that israel is an apartheid racist(discriminatory, whatever you choose to call it) state and no nerves touched, as calm and lucid as can be.
and no nerves touched, as calm and lucid as can be.
I'ts your opinion and your entitled to it, just wish you would have spent a week here to see it with your own eyes and then judge.
And I wasn't referring to you with the lol, naturally.
Still doesn't
Where were you guys when shit went down in Cambodia, Rwanda or Darfur? why don't you guys embargo China for Tibet or Turkey for Cyprus ? that's the hypocrisy I'm talking about. You can spin it all around but the only reason a guy like you talks about standing up for the Palestinians is because it involves Israel. You wouldn't give two shits about them otherwise.
You surly have no moral superiority to make demands or put us in our place and that's whats really killing you. even worse is you don't have any kind of real leverage to make Israel "bend the knee", that's it for us, last stop and no matter how bad "economically" the country is doing, most will never pack up and leave for a better welfare check , we aren't Europeans.
One serious thought though, actually a main reason why we and the Palestinians aren't getting along is that we are very similar in mentality. We share much more values with them then with Europeans and that's another thing some arrogant Europeans choose to ignore when applying their double standards.
Great post! 
Those are some pathetic examples, wich is very telling for your hypocrisy, and comical since you accuse others of it.
First of all, the EU untill recent was mostly working on creating an alliance to protect itself, and only had peacekeeping force (mostly sponsered by america) during that time.
When China started to up their efforts in tibet, we were mostly trying not to shit out pants from the soviets.
Cambodia, Rwanda and Darfur, were internal genocides. Quite a different story when its not one country crossing the others border and pulling shit. You need to breach a border unwanted for this. We werent ready in Cambodia(america was tho), but we were ready to do that in Rwanda. And its funny you name that, as belgium lost its 10 blue helmet peacekeepers there, beeing tortured and hacked by machettes. But hey, just belgium right.
Darfur ? UN peacekeeping forces also there.
So i'm really not seeing the point of mentionning those. UN peacekeeping force does breach the border, but to keep the peace, wich is kinda what you want in a genocide.
China, Russia and Israel are your 3 examples where a nation crossed the border and annexed, togheter with barely or ALOT of killing.
China started doing that long before the EU, and its a tricky situation today
Russia took back a given province wich has a large majority of native russians who were pro annexation. apart from typical russian "sending some troops to cause havoc in the riots without the russian badge", no bloodshed.
Israel ? No excuse. Actually, considering the holocaust, Israel should be the last nation to pull this shit onto another.
"moral superiority ?" Your prime minister is going in the media saying the worst bullshit, always holocause related, and europe just takes it and shuts up. Pathetic. The fact is that Israel are killing and destroying palestina people for decades. We have had several proposals, but israel doesnt give a shit, because we dont embargo anyway. We should.
Palestinian people and you dont get along, cause you stole their land, and have kept doing that for a few decades now, make their life miserable, and when a terrorist organisation trows a rocket, you respond by bombing city's of innocents.
Thats why the world hates israel. And why more and more word comes up to why our leaders shouldnt just take israels crap and allow it
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Did we start WW3 with russia when they annexed Krim (wich they had right to do, i dont agree on the EU standpoint).
Nope, we told them to stop it, and put embargo's when they didnt. Later we told them to undo their annexation, they refused, second embargo's
and same story for the third round.
The proper response is to respond when they talk historical crap in the press. And to threaten and give embargo's when they pull military shit.
First of all, the EU untill recent was mostly working on creating an alliance to protect itself, and only had peacekeeping force (mostly sponsered by america) during that time.
When China started to up their efforts in tibet, we were mostly trying not to shit out pants from the soviets.
Cambodia, Rwanda and Darfur, were internal genocides. Quite a different story when its not one country crossing the others border and pulling shit. You need to breach a border unwanted for this. We werent ready in Cambodia(america was tho), but we were ready to do that in Rwanda. And its funny you name that, as belgium lost its 10 blue helmet peacekeepers there, beeing tortured and hacked by machettes. But hey, just belgium right.
Darfur ? UN peacekeeping forces also there.
So i'm really not seeing the point of mentionning those. UN peacekeeping force does breach the border, but to keep the peace, wich is kinda what you want in a genocide.
China, Russia and Israel are your 3 examples where a nation crossed the border and annexed, togheter with barely or ALOT of killing.
China started doing that long before the EU, and its a tricky situation today
Russia took back a given province wich has a large majority of native russians who were pro annexation. apart from typical russian "sending some troops to cause havoc in the riots without the russian badge", no bloodshed.
Israel ? No excuse. Actually, considering the holocaust, Israel should be the last nation to pull this shit onto another.
"moral superiority ?" Your prime minister is going in the media saying the worst bullshit, always holocause related, and europe just takes it and shuts up. Pathetic. The fact is that Israel are killing and destroying palestina people for decades. We have had several proposals, but israel doesnt give a shit, because we dont embargo anyway. We should.
Palestinian people and you dont get along, cause you stole their land, and have kept doing that for a few decades now, make their life miserable, and when a terrorist organisation trows a rocket, you respond by bombing city's of innocents.
Thats why the world hates israel. And why more and more word comes up to why our leaders shouldnt just take israels crap and allow it
- - - Updated - - -
Did we start WW3 with russia when they annexed Krim (wich they had right to do, i dont agree on the EU standpoint).
Nope, we told them to stop it, and put embargo's when they didnt. Later we told them to undo their annexation, they refused, second embargo's
and same story for the third round.
The proper response is to respond when they talk historical crap in the press. And to threaten and give embargo's when they pull military shit.
Why do you bother responding when it clear you don't have the mental capacity to do so constructively? you don't even understand half the things i'm talking about let alone have the ability to address the significant ones
The examples I used have nothing to do with our conflict, they were just examples of times it was more convenient for the enlightened European countries to do almost zero and the public uproar wasn't even close in proportion to that against Israel .
I'ts also funny how you talk about those 10 guys you lost over in Rwanda, saying you were ready to help with a straight face, you are unreal man, YOUR country is the one responsible for the events that led to that genocide to begin with, you went there, a place you absolutely have no business being expect for pure greed ( which is much worse imo) and you want to talk about moral superiority ?
Turkey occupies Cyprus lets see you boycott them, China Still occupies Tibet so i guess it's never to late. Israel was also founded before the mighty EU so what makes it different? and no bloodshed in Ukraine? you really are disconnected
Our prime minster is a DICK, fucking hate him but he was elected and sometimes in a democracy assholes get elected, he is just a politician and they come and go. saying crap at the UN is just that, saying crap. Real issues don't get addressed or solved at the UN, it's just a puppet show and a bigger stage for politicians to feel important and talk to their own voters using the "credibility" it lends.
And why are you still saying stuff like "why we allow it" ? you really don't have much say left anyway and no means to back it up, "we had proposals but Israel doesn't give a shit bo ho" .
In the end this conflict isn't about you, your belifes, your notion of right and wrong, hatered for israel or whatever, they are all irelevnts just as much as your country's "proposals" are and that's what someone arrogant as you can't seem to accept, the conflict will resolve itself when both our people will mature, grow tired of fighting, come to terms with the other existance and finally settle, even for bad peace, and not even a million European "proposals" or embargo threats will make that day come faster
The examples I used have nothing to do with our conflict, they were just examples of times it was more convenient for the enlightened European countries to do almost zero and the public uproar wasn't even close in proportion to that against Israel .
I'ts also funny how you talk about those 10 guys you lost over in Rwanda, saying you were ready to help with a straight face, you are unreal man, YOUR country is the one responsible for the events that led to that genocide to begin with, you went there, a place you absolutely have no business being expect for pure greed ( which is much worse imo) and you want to talk about moral superiority ?
Turkey occupies Cyprus lets see you boycott them, China Still occupies Tibet so i guess it's never to late. Israel was also founded before the mighty EU so what makes it different? and no bloodshed in Ukraine? you really are disconnected
Our prime minster is a DICK, fucking hate him but he was elected and sometimes in a democracy assholes get elected, he is just a politician and they come and go. saying crap at the UN is just that, saying crap. Real issues don't get addressed or solved at the UN, it's just a puppet show and a bigger stage for politicians to feel important and talk to their own voters using the "credibility" it lends.
And why are you still saying stuff like "why we allow it" ? you really don't have much say left anyway and no means to back it up, "we had proposals but Israel doesn't give a shit bo ho"
.In the end this conflict isn't about you, your belifes, your notion of right and wrong, hatered for israel or whatever, they are all irelevnts just as much as your country's "proposals" are and that's what someone arrogant as you can't seem to accept, the conflict will resolve itself when both our people will mature, grow tired of fighting, come to terms with the other existance and finally settle, even for bad peace, and not even a million European "proposals" or embargo threats will make that day come faster
