How an Amazonian tribe turned a missionary into an atheist (1 Viewer)

[Martin]

But with agnostics, they can easily pick up a book and be all religion-psycho again

lolwut? Where are you getting this?

 

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[Enron]

It is. But the difference between atheist and agnostic is negligible. Neither of them believe in god thus neither of them live in accordance with religious conviction.

Atheist<->agnostic is basically a semantic dispute.

EDIT: I would even argue that agnostic is the politically correct version of atheist.

An atheist is absolutely sure god doesn't exist.

An agnostic is holding out to see what happens at the end. You really can't say whether an agnostic believes in god or doesn't, as it's relative to the individual.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

atheism |&#712;&#257;&#952;&#275;&#716;iz&#601;m|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist.

agnostic |ag&#712;nästik|
noun
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

 

[Enron]

The world is widely accepted to be just the United States.

Touche. +rep

 

[Martin]

An atheist is absolutely sure god doesn't exist.

An agnostic is holding out to see what happens at the end. You really can't say whether an agnostic believes in god or doesn't, as it's relative to the individual.

Except that despite the dictionary definition agnostic is used to describe people who don't believe in god but refuse to be atheists, because that is the practical use of the word.

More importantly, however, what form does this "holding out" take? Do you live your life in accordance with religious observance or don't you? There's no fence sitting option, you have to choose one or the other.

 

[Eddy]

lolwut? Where are you getting this?

Agnostics have more of a chance to follow religion than atheists, that's all Im trying to say. There so completely different.

 

[Martin]

Agnostics have more of a chance to follow religion than atheists, that's all Im trying to say. There so completely different.

Are they really? Are you observing a surge of agnostics becoming religious?

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Except that despite the dictionary definition agnostic is used to describe people who don't believe in god but refuse to be atheists, because that is the practical use of the word.

More importantly, however, what form does this "holding out" take? Do you live your life in accordance with religious observance or don't you? There's no fence sitting option, you have to choose one or the other.

So then those people are misusing the word.

 

[Eddy]

Are they really? Are you observing a surge of agnostics becoming religious?

I always thought of it that way. What would you call a person not sure if there is a god, and is 50/50 on the situtation.

 

[Martin]

So then those people are misusing the word.

Yes, what an unusual thing in the history of languages.

 

[Martin]

I always thought of it that way. What would you call a person not sure if there is a god, and is 50/50 on the situtation.

The central question is do you believe in god? Yes -> theist. No -> atheist.
Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge. Can you know that there is a god? Yes -> gnostic. No -> agnostic.

I think it's clear the first question is the important one here. People make choices based on beliefs, not based on whether those beliefs can be demonstrated rationally.

So in principle a believer is a theist gnostic, however the category theist agnostic is going to be painfully thin because it's a very politically incorrect thing to say for a so called religious person.

 

[Eddy]

The central question is do you believe in god? Yes -> theist. No -> atheist.
Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge. Can you know that there is a god? Yes -> gnostic. No -> agnostic.

I think it's clear the first question is the important one here. People make choices based on beliefs, not based on whether those beliefs can be demonstrated rationally.

So in principle a believer is a theist gnostic, however the category theist agnostic is going to be painfully thin because it's a very politically incorrect thing to say for a so called religious person.

Agreed, on the last part. But I don't remember asking myself if I believed in god, rather than "does a god exist". They both have to contemplate, otherwise, why bother even asking them in the first place.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Wrong, think again. And which "godless people" are you talking about ? Israelis ? There more religious than Christianiy and Islam combined. And there aren't any Atheist state countries so once again, don't know which godless people you are talking about.

They are people who are either agnostics, atheists, or people who claim to believe to believe in God but act contrary to his teachings.

Materialists, opportunists, imperialists, etc. are all Godless.

 

[Martin]

Agreed, on the last part. But I don't remember asking myself if I believed in god, rather than "does a god exist". They both have to contemplate, otherwise, why bother even asking them in the first place.

It's a confusing place semantically speaking. "Does god exist" is just as much a statement of belief as it is of knowledge. Or can be.

It is understood that if you know something to be true you believe it automatically. The reverse is not true, that's where the distinction lies. Another way to say "knows" is "I can prove it".

Or better still. "I believe something" means I have reason to believe. "I know something" means everyone has reason to believe, because it's demonstrable.

 

[Bjerknes]

There are quite a lot of religious materialists.

 

[Enron]

Except that despite the dictionary definition agnostic is used to describe people who don't believe in god but refuse to be atheists, because that is the practical use of the word.

More importantly, however, what form does this "holding out" take? Do you live your life in accordance with religious observance or don't you? There's no fence sitting option, you have to choose one or the other.

From my own experience the agnostics I've spoken to, don't necessarily worship or believe in a god, but at the same time if one does exist... then that's ok too. Which then leads people to believe that agnostics are merely trying a bit of CYA in case "judgement day" does actually come.

 

[Enron]

Materialists, opportunists, imperialists, etc. are all Godless.

I thought godless people were people that didn't believe in a god.

 

[Eddy]

They are people who are either agnostics, atheists, or people who claim to believe to believe in God but act contrary to his teachings.

Materialists, opportunists, imperialists, etc. are all Godless.

What ? How do you know they "claim" to be ? Are we assuming they are atheists/agnostics or do you have proof ?

 

[Bjerknes]

Godless people are terrorists apparently.

 

[Martin]

people who claim to believe to believe in God but act contrary to his teachings.

I'm assuming you meant "claim to believe".

This is a dishonest statement, and the logical consequence is pointless. You're saying that if someone behaves not according to religious belief that person is automatically an atheist. If that's true then everyone is an atheist because no person has ever lived who followed religious teachings 100% (why? because the teachings themselves are so absurd it's impossible to do so)

Secondly, it's a conceited statement to say that someone who claims to believe doesn't actually believe. You're claiming to have knowledge you don't have. There's no way of knowing. You might say if someone is a believer, it would rationally force him to obey religious teaching. But it may be that he's unable to. Or it may be that his belief waivers. Or it may be that he believes the punishment is coming but he thinks transgressing is worth it anyway.

Materialists, opportunists, imperialists, etc. are all Godless.

Materialists I would agree. As for the others you're just excluding people you don't like based on your own bias.