Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (13 Viewers)

[Buck Fuddy]

Seems like this whole thread got derailed into religious polemics.

 

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[Linebreak]

exactly what the cynics were always aiming for

 

[pitbull]

The hindu scriptures were written at least 1500 years before the bible was. None if them, so gay, have been down to be forged or manipulated to include any stories of the major gods.

I'm interested in the particular Krishna part Raz was talking about, when was that written? 1500 years before new testament or 1500 before old testament? And what is the proof behind it?

 

[Zé Tahir]

But doesn't it seem fishy to you that Islam claims that about the 100k prophets? I mean, it's a great way of claiming that all religions that ever existed were somehow related to Islam? It's a bold claim, and I'm not really sure if I should believe it. Anyone can come forward now and say the same and start a religion of his own, right?(Well, other than the backlash from all religions condemning him as a false prophet and all )

There are so many religions and everyone claims to be truth-bearing and each one has had at least one figure head who historians will tell you were good people who stood out among others of their time period. By studying what these people taught and knowing that in the Qur'an it states that God has sent over 100k prophets one can speculate as to who these others were that weren't named.

You don't have to believe it, it's not written in the Qur'an or mentioned in the Hadith (doesn't mention anyone by name at least). It's a speculative thing. On the one hand opponents of religion claim that following scripture limits people and opposes free thought on the other hand when something is left up interpretation it's accused of being vague and adding to confusion'. Make up your mind

 

[Seven]

There are so many religions and everyone claims to be truth-bearing and each one has had at least one figure head who historians will tell you were good people who stood out among others of their time period. By studying what these people taught and knowing that in the Qur'an it states that God has sent over 100k prophets one can speculate as to who these others were that weren't named.

You don't have to believe it, it's not written in the Qur'an or mentioned in the Hadith (doesn't mention anyone by name at least). It's a speculative thing. On the one hand opponents of religion claim that following scripture limits people and opposes free thought on the other hand when something is left up interpretation it's accused of being vague and adding to confusion'. Make up your mind

The problem is always strict interpretation. Or rather thinking that your strict interpretation is the only one that can be right. If religion would ever work (and we better hope it can, because it seems a lot of people have evolved or devolved into religious beings), it would need a degree of flexibility. The problem with a vague text is that you get an extremist who thinks 'only Allah' can easily be translated to 'all Christians must die'. The strict belief that his interpretation is not up for debate and is the only one who can possibly be right is the true danger.

Problem remains though that when you have an organised religion, based on scripture, there will always be extremist subgroups.

 

[Zé Tahir]

The problem is always strict interpretation. Or rather thinking that your strict interpretation is the only one that can be right. If religion would ever work (and we better hope it can, because it seems a lot of people have evolved or devolved into religious beings), it would need a degree of flexibility. The problem with a vague text is that you get an extremist who thinks 'only Allah' can easily be translated to 'all Christians must die'. The strict belief that his interpretation is not up for debate and is the only one who can possibly be right is the true danger.

Problem remains though that when you have an organised religion, based on scripture, there will always be extremist subgroups.

Some of these extreme interpretations didn't really surface until about a century ago give or take and these interpretations only exist where there is conflict to begin with. Take Turkey or Bangladesh (Bangladesh not so much anymore) for example where there isn't much sectarian violence these interpretations don't really exist but prevalent in places like Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan where there's plenty sectarian violence, weak & corrupt govt's, absence of law and order, poverty, etc.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Your posts reads like gibberish?

That's just your brain shutting down due to the inability to grasp the awesomeness of my post.

 

[Fred]

Some of these extreme interpretations didn't really surface until about a century ago give or take and these interpretations only exist where there is conflict to begin with. Take Turkey or Bangladesh (Bangladesh not so much anymore) for example where there isn't much sectarian violence these interpretations don't really exist but prevalent in places like Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan where there's plenty sectarian violence, weak & corrupt govt's, absence of law and order, poverty, etc.

That's a good point.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I'm interested in the particular Krishna part Raz was talking about, when was that written? 1500 years before new testament or 1500 before old testament? And what is the proof behind it?

From what was taught to me, sages, or rishis, wrote eyewitness accounts if the lives of the gods and all the events revolving around them. Whether it is true, well, your guess is as good as mine.

There are so many religions and everyone claims to be truth-bearing and each one has had at least one figure head who historians will tell you were good people who stood out among others of their time period. By studying what these people taught and knowing that in the Qur'an it states that God has sent over 100k prophets one can speculate as to who these others were that weren't named.

You don't have to believe it, it's not written in the Qur'an or mentioned in the Hadith (doesn't mention anyone by name at least). It's a speculative thing. On the one hand opponents of religion claim that following scripture limits people and opposes free thought on the other hand when something is left up interpretation it's accused of being vague and adding to confusion'. Make up your mind

Vague when it comes to truth claims and attempts at explaining natural phenomena. Opposing free thought when it comes to the rules that a religious follower should abide by.

I'm sure you know this by now, Z, that clarity is important for effective communication. I learnt this when i was in 1st grade! How could god be vague when explaining anything?

 

[pitbull]

From what was taught to me, sages, or rishis, wrote eyewitness accounts if the lives of the gods and all the events revolving around them. Whether it is true, well, your guess is as good as mine.

I haven't been tought anything of it, so your's prob is a bit better Anyways, when did this become popular in India (or wherever it first became popular)?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I haven't been tought anything of it, so your's prob is a bit better Anyways, when did this become popular in India (or wherever it first became popular)?

I'm not sure of the exact period, but the last time i checked on the internet, it start around 2000-1500 BCE. I'm not a Hindu scholar, so I'm really not the best source for detailed discussions.

 

[Zé Tahir]

From what was taught to me, sages, or rishis, wrote eyewitness accounts if the lives of the gods and all the events revolving around them. Whether it is true, well, your guess is as good as mine.



Vague when it comes to truth claims and attempts at explaining natural phenomena. Opposing free thought when it comes to the rules that a religious follower should abide by.

I'm sure you know this by now, Z, that clarity is important for effective communication. I learnt this when i was in 1st grade! How could god be vague when explaining anything?

You call it vague, not I.

Sheik, you'd love it if God appeared to you and proved his existence, taking the word 'faith' out of the context wouldn't you? Maybe also if Lega Calcio confirmed that Juventus would win this seasons scudetto, that you're definitely receiving a promotion in 2015 and another in 2019. Then you can just sit back and relax knowing all of life's answers, eh?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I've told you before, Z, that i don't put much value in faith when it comes to the truth. Cos faith never makes anything true. God appearing before us is one of the ways to make me a believer. I'm just trying to live my life with 1 standard: evidence. Asking for evidence in all walks of life but asking for faith when it comes to god constitutes a double standard, and I'm not having that in my life.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

thats a blatant lie, theres no evidence you will get paid after you go to work, no evidence your money will be in the bank, and no evidence that girl you take out will put out.

 

[Martin]

solipsism lol

 

[GordoDeCentral]

that was one of my nicknames, solipsist

 

[Martin]

because nothing can be proven everything is equally believable. how does that work out in finance?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

thats a blatant lie, theres no evidence you will get paid after you go to work, no evidence your money will be in the bank, and no evidence that girl you take out will put out.

Actually, there is. My employer has a pretty good track record of paying their employees on payday. And in the rare case where they failed to credit the money in time, they were quick to get it resolved in the least amount of time. All these actions have set a certain level of expectation regarding their track record in paying the salary. Their actions build a certain amount if trust between us. And that's good enough for me.

As for the girl, well maybe that's why I'm not good with relationships.

 

[Gabriel]

Some of these extreme interpretations didn't really surface until about a century ago give or take and these interpretations only exist where there is conflict to begin with. Take Turkey or Bangladesh (Bangladesh not so much anymore) for example where there isn't much sectarian violence these interpretations don't really exist but prevalent in places like Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan where there's plenty sectarian violence, weak & corrupt govt's, absence of law and order, poverty, etc.

This has to do a lot with the country(ies) and collective situation of the people/groups (standards of life).

For example you get a religious group conformed by people that lives quite well, or at least is not suffering from violence/hunger/whatever and you get a relatively happy/peaceful group, they will associate it with their God being kind and that there's really not much wrong in what they're doing/supposed to do and have no reason whatsoever to mess with people with different beliefs.

Then you get a group which is continually suffering from hunger/violence/abuse whatever, they will be obviously not happy and they will probably atribute it to their God, but not in the way that they'd turn away from him but in a "God must be pissed, there must be something wrong that we need to correct. It's all the infidels fault" really primitive way of thinking but human after all, which finds itselfs boosted by things taught by most religions IE: Only this religion will bring salvation or on more extremist cases "avoid contact with anyone who doesn't share your beliefs".

The topic regarding religious violence is far more complicated than just "oh yeah, lets blow up some dudes because they don't live how we do"

You just don't see rich people carrying out religious crusades barring the occasional nutcase, but more than 90% of the people that belong to these kind of groups didn't have a good standard of life before joining to begin with.

Man will always have an excuse to be violent towards man.

I hope I explained myself well.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Actually, there is. My employer has a pretty good track record of paying their employees on payday. And in the rare case where they failed to credit the money in time, they were quick to get it resolved in the least amount of time. All these actions have set a certain level of expectation regarding their track record in paying the salary. Their actions build a certain amount if trust between us. And that's good enough for me.

As for the girl, well maybe that's why I'm not good with relationships.

a certain amount but no certitude and no proof they 'will' as a matter fact evidence points that if anything they will most likely default on paying employees in their last gasp of existence. You and everyone else, puts much faith into many aspects of life, whether you choose to call it that or not doesnt change that fact. Those who have faith in a higher power just like you have established a relationship of trust your inability to understand it doesnt disprove its existence.