Does God exist? (William Lane Craig vs Peter Atkins debate) (20 Viewers)

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Being religious/non religious alone doesn't make you concerned for the sufferings of others. This is a trait you can find in people (to different extents of course) regardless of their religious beliefs. So, putting aside those people who care about other people because of their "compassion and sympathy for their fellow humans" , we are left with people who are not altruists. Now we have religions which ask their followers to do good, they warn their followers of punishment and promise them heaven. And this could work. Religious people would "try" to do good because they are scared of punishment. As ridiculous as it may sound, don't you think the final outcome is richer in this case?

Like a student who studies because he loves studying vs a student who does his homework because he's scared of the teacher's punishment, because he is too "weak" to know it's the "right" thing to do. With a teacher, we have two students who study, without him, there's only one.

You don't need religion to be a good person, to have pity for the misfortunes of others, but religions are good for the most part because their teachings can show their followers the right path when the "compassion and empathy" bit wouldn't work well.

I'm not contesting the fact that religion is good for some people. But fear and intimidation of eternal suffering in hell or missing our on paradise do not seem like good reasons to me. I believe that we should have good reasons for the things we do and believe in.

Also, I think it's fair to say that religion does a bad job at making the people without compassion and empathy still be good to others. If fear and intimidation are the best reasons religion has to make these people be good to others, then why do we still have evil people? Why isn't the fear of god not enough to make these people good?

And you think religious people don't have that, they only do it only because of fear of hell? That's nonsense.

By the way you still haven't answered my question.

I never said that. He asked my personal reason for being good, and I stated them.

As for your other question: don't you think we should have good reasons/basis/foundations for our beliefs? If you think we do, then that's all I'm trying to do. Finding a good reason to be good.

 

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[king Ale]

I'm not contesting the fact that religion is good for some people. But fear and intimidation of eternal suffering in hell or missing our on paradise do not seem like good reasons to me. I believe that we should have good reasons for the things we do and believe in.

And you think you don't need religion to have a good reason for the things you do, so what's the problem? Religion can provide reason for some other people and the outcome is more people doing good and avoiding bad.

Also, I think it's fair to say that religion does a bad job at making the people without compassion and empathy still be good to others. If fear and intimidation are the best reasons religion has to make these people be good to others, then why do we still have evil people? Why isn't the fear of god not enough to make these people good?

Of course it's not enough. Like a student who's been warned of a punishment but still doesn't do his homework.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

And you think you don't need religion to have a good reason for the things you do, so what's the problem? Religion can provide reason for some other people and the outcome is more people doing good and avoiding bad.



Of course it's not enough. Like a student who's been warned of a punishment but still doesn't do his homework.

And I want to find a better reason for that student to do his homework.

 

[king Ale]

And I want to find a better reason for that student to do his homework.

That's great

Don't forget that many religious people also have better reasons (other than intimidation or reward) to do good/avoid bad but religions are necessary for those who don't.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

That's great

Don't forget that many religious people also have better reasons (other than intimidation or reward) to do good/avoid bad but religions are necessary for those who don't.

In what way are they better, may I ask?

 

[Raz]

I never said that. He asked my personal reason for being good, and I stated them.

As for your other question: don't you think we should have good reasons/basis/foundations for our beliefs? If you think we do, then that's all I'm trying to do. Finding a good reason to be good.

Why? if the end result is the same the reason has no significant meaning, specially when the end result is not a chance but the aim of the the both basises.

I mean why try to change the reasons and then convince them that they should be doing the same stuff they have been doing all time just for different reasons, that makes absolutely no sense, you waste resources for nothing and in the end you achieve nothing. Economically not efficient

 

[Martin]

That's great

Don't forget that many religious people also have better reasons (other than intimidation or reward) to do good/avoid bad but religions are necessary for those who don't.

That's the hypothesis at least. Has it ever been tested? Is it testable?

---------- Post added 18.04.2012 at 19:29 ----------

Why? if the end result is the same the reason has no significant meaning, specially when the end result is not a chance but the aim of the the both basises.

I mean why try to change the reasons and then convince them that they should be doing the same stuff they have been doing all time just for different reasons, that makes absolutely no sense, you waste resources for nothing and in the end you achieve nothing.

This is an oversimplification. "Just be good", "just do good". Noone does bad because they want to do bad. Everyone who does bad claims that it's good. It's true of Breivik who's testifying in court right now, it's true of Hitler and it's been true of just about anyone. The whole crux of the issue is what people believe is good.

Thus, what good is it saying to religious people who bash gays "be good"? According to them, they already are. But if you can convince them that they're mistaken, then you have a chance to turn it around.

 

[X Æ A-12]

That's the hypothesis at least. Has it ever been tested? Is it testable?

---------- Post added 18.04.2012 at 19:29 ----------



This is an oversimplification. "Just be good", "just do good". Noone does bad because they want to do bad. Everyone who does bad claims that it's good. It's true of Breivik who's testifying in court right now, it's true of Hitler and it's been true of just about anyone. The whole crux of the issue is what people believe is good.

Thus, what good is it saying to religious people who bash gays "be good"? According to them, they already are. But if you can convince them that they're mistaken, then you have a chance to turn it around.

Serial killing sadists?

 

[Martin]

Serial killing sadists?

Ok, almost noone.

 

[Raz]

This is an oversimplification. "Just be good", "just do good". Noone does bad because they want to do bad. Everyone who does bad claims that it's good. It's true of Breivik who's testifying in court right now, it's true of Hitler and it's been true of just about anyone. The whole crux of the issue is what people believe is good.

Thus, what good is it saying to religious people who bash gays "be good"? According to them, they already are. But if you can convince them that they're mistaken, then you have a chance to turn it around.

I never said that religion only brings good in people, like people who have compassion are not always good too. All I'm saying is why so much emphasis on the reason(god) if the aim is to be altruistic, help people, not kill and all that stuff. Why try to disprove everything instead of trying to talk about issues, like some religious people bashing gays, which in my opinion has nothing to do with religion at all it's just how man interprets it.

Like with all things it's not an easy ticket to success(being good, right or anything else in that category), but why not try to invest effort in solving issues instead of trying to disprove the whole belief system which in itself is not bad and not abused(by people who have nothing to do with realigion) is a lot more good then bad.

 

[Martin]

I never said that religion only brings good in people, like people who have compassion are not always good too. All I'm saying is why so much emphasis on the reason(god) if the aim is to be altruistic, help people, not kill and all that stuff. Why try to disprove everything instead of trying to talk about issues, like some religious people bashing gays, which in my opinion has nothing to do with religion at all it's just how man interprets it.

Like with all things it's not an easy ticket to success(being good, right or anything else in that category), but why not try to invest effort in solving issues instead of trying to disprove the whole belief system which in itself is not bad and not abused(by people who have nothing to do with realigion) is a lot more good then bad.

Because some people see religion somewhat similar to guns. Guns in themselves are not "bad", but they are too dangerous to be available without restrictions.

It's not a great analogy, but there you go.

 

[Raz]

You're right, it's really not a great analogy. The problem with this is people in power, not religion.

 

[Martin]

You're right, it's really not a great analogy.

No, but nevertheless it answers your question about why.

 

[Raz]

religion is not the problem, but the people who misuse it by manipulating every possible word and way.

It's like denying mankind all the medicine reaserch programs, because some maniacs could make a super virus and kill bunch of people.

It's not the best analogy, but there you go.

 

[Raz]

And I want to find a better reason for that student to do his homework.

But reasons are to achieve something, to have a reason for a reason is pointless, and if the goal is homework isn't both reasons good and if they require the same amount of effort they are equally good?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

There are miracles in everything:

 

[Raz]

There are miracles in everything:

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

But reasons are to achieve something, to have a reason for a reason is pointless, and if the goal is homework isn't both reasons good and if they require the same amount of effort they are equally good?

And I want to achieve the most compelling argument to be good and do good. Remember, this is not just about people who are already doing good due to religion. This is for a new generation of people whose beliefs will be based on non-religious grounds. If I am to not teach my kids about my religion, then I need another basis for their morality. And it's gotta be based on something more real than a divine lawgiver.

 

[Raz]

And I want to achieve the most compelling argument to be good and do good. Remember, this is not just about people who are already doing good due to religion. This is for a new generation of people whose beliefs will be based on non-religious grounds. If I am to not teach my kids about my religion, then I need another basis for their morality. And it's gotta be based on something more real than a divine lawgiver.

Fair enough.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]