Zebina signed(?) and Emerson-case continues (16 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


First of all, I'm a slightly disgusted at your gross generalisation of English footballers. English footballers repressent a broad range of ability and class; to rate them lower simply because of their nationality is ignorant and smacks of bigotry.

Next, Evra has not out-performed all the other left backs in the competition. Bridge played many games better than Evra's best, as did Stuttgard's Lahm. He is class, but to call him the best on earth is certainly a stretch. He's had the advantage of Rothen on his wing while Bridge has had to carry the left wing load himself when Duff is not on the pitch and Damien has been injured a lot. Furthermore, Rothen helps out Evra with the defense, while Bridge never gets any such assistance and he stills performs just as good if not better than Evra.

Don't take it personally, okay. I don't mean to put a negative conotation on the fact their English. What I mean, in a more respectful way, is that many English footballers today are overated, not just because I think the EPL is an easier league to play in than Italy or Spain. For example, I think Beckham and Owen are the two of the most overated players in the world IMO. Beckham does not have the class everyone thinks he does, and neither does Owen. Too much hype was put on him early, and he has in my eyes failed. Owen is miles behind the likes of Henry, and if I was Sven, I start Alan Smith over Owen. I don't have prejudice against the English at all, in fact I know some personally and think very highly of them, and the same goes to you. But what I meant by my statement is that I do not think much of English football or footballers as a whole; IMO they are a step behind the players and teams of the other top 2 leagues in Europe. The fact that English clubs have only played in one C.L. Final in the past 17 years expresses my point nicely.

Your point about Rothen and Evra is true, but I would not consider Bridge to be the best LB in the world for different reasons.

 

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[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Stuart ] ++
I disagree. Carlos is fast, I'll give you that, but his craving for going forward is the cause of so many goals Real Madrid concede. His free kicks suck, and if I was an opposing winger I would do the very opposite of what you're saying. Rather than staying back to help my full back cover Carlos I'd be sure to be ready to make him pay for going forward and losing possession. Bridge is much more effective than Roberto Carlos, as are Evra and Zambrotta to name a few.

The thing is, I don't think that it's Roberto's fault for a lot of Real's conceded goals. I think it has more to do with their poor central defense, and Cassillas' inability to cover his box. Basically, modern fullbacks are expected to get up the wing and attack. Carlos does this with the best of them, and he is also the best at getting back to recover. The problem is that he is good in the air (he shouldn't have to be), and his central defenders can not cover for him at all. The same thing happens to Zamrotta, but it is less noticable because he doesn't go forward as much anymore. Taken in the context of Real Madrid, Roberto Carlos is not very effective, but looking at him as a left back regardless of his club, and he seems to fit the bill pretty well. Now, you might argue that he has to be evaluated in soe sort of context, but the fact that Real Madrid is such a horribly unbalanced team makes it an unfair comparison, especially to Wayne Bridge who has the excellent William Gallas and John Terry to cover him and his keeper can command the box.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by IncuboRossonero ] ++
CalcioMercato claims Juve is in talks with Redondo !!!!???

Holy SHITE!!!!

Good one. What about Simic included in the deal?

 

[Jun-hide]

Firstly to say Evra is a best LB is a bit premature to say. He had 2 good season in France, and has yet establish himself in the international stage. The guy has special talent and could possibly be the very best circulating ATM but he has to prove it.
But nonetheless, I do think he will turn out to be become a lot better player than Bridge. Firstly he is more athletic than Bridge and has shown great defensive ability for 21year old. This factor alone gives him huge edge in the transfer market than majority of players. Bridge is polished right now, but generally skill level improve with age assuming that one has right environment and approach to the game i.e. Henry.
Anyway to say that Bridge is one of the best LB circulating shows the state of fullback position. The guy is good no doubt but he is nothing *speical*.

As for Zebina signing, I think it is pretty good deal.
Firstly, I like to point out I hated Zebina with uttermost passion from the guy's face to his playing style. He is more mistake prone than Tudor is injury prone, and his passing would put Montero, Iluliano into shame (I may be pushing a bit). Nonetheless, he has been relatively stable this year, which might suggest that he is finally maturing and as a rule of of thumb defenders tend to mature from mid 20s and have a longer span of good years than forwards normally do.
Secondly, it shows Moggi's intention to rejuvenate our defence. And Moggi is no fool, he knows Juve need a strong central figure in the defence who can hold the unit together. I am only certain that Ferrari will come, and Evra might join us as well, depending on the Zambrotta's role next year. Mexes would be a stretch, IMO, not because of his value since I do not think his value would be that high, but I cant imagine Moggi introducing more than 3new players this year.
And lastly, I think we are certain to say ciao to Legro, Montero or Iluliano.

 

[Stu]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


The thing is, I don't think that it's Roberto's fault for a lot of Real's conceded goals. I think it has more to do with their poor central defense, and Cassillas' inability to cover his box. Basically, modern fullbacks are expected to get up the wing and attack. Carlos does this with the best of them, and he is also the best at getting back to recover. The problem is that he is good in the air (he shouldn't have to be), and his central defenders can not cover for him at all. The same thing happens to Zamrotta, but it is less noticable because he doesn't go forward as much anymore. Taken in the context of Real Madrid, Roberto Carlos is not very effective, but looking at him as a left back regardless of his club, and he seems to fit the bill pretty well. Now, you might argue that he has to be evaluated in soe sort of context, but the fact that Real Madrid is such a horribly unbalanced team makes it an unfair comparison, especially to Wayne Bridge who has the excellent William Gallas and John Terry to cover him and his keeper can command the box.

Well, our opinions clearly differ, but I'd like to touch on that final comment you made. You say that Bridge has better cover in Gallas and Terry, and that's definitely true, but even so, Wayne is much better defensively than Roberto. In one-on-one situations, in group defending, whatever. Bridge is better.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Andrea Becchi ] ++
Don't take it personally, okay. I don't mean to put a negative conotation on the fact their English.

I highly doubt that. You stated, "I mean he is an English footballer, and I don't rate their kind highly." If that doesn't imply a negative connotation on the fact that they are English, then I don't know what would.

++ [ originally posted by Andrea Becchi ] ++
What I mean, in a more respectful way, is that many English footballers today are overated, not just because I think the EPL is an easier league to play in than Italy or Spain. For example, I think Beckham and Owen are the two of the most overated players in the world IMO. Beckham does not have the class everyone thinks he does, and neither does Owen. Too much hype was put on him early, and he has in my eyes failed. Owen is miles behind the likes of Henry, and if I was Sven, I start Alan Smith over Owen.

Okay, so Beckham and Owen are overrated...I fail to see how that reflects on English players in general at all. And I think a lot of England fans are glad you don't coach their team because while Alan Smith is a fine player, he certainly does not have the scoring ability of Owen.

++ [ originally posted by Andrea Becchi ] ++
I don't have prejudice against the English at all, in fact I know some personally and think very highly of them, and the same goes to you. But what I meant by my statement is that I do not think much of English football or footballers as a whole; IMO they are a step behind the players and teams of the other top 2 leagues in Europe. The fact that English clubs have only played in one C.L. Final in the past 17 years expresses my point nicely.

English teams are not comprised of exclusively english players, nor are continental teams comprised exclusively of players from their respective countries. Therefore, I don't see how your argument justifies your generalisations.

++ [ originally posted by Andrea Becchi ] ++
Your point about Rothen and Evra is true, but I would not consider Bridge to be the best LB in the world for different reasons.

And what might those reasons be?f

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Stuart ] ++
Well, our opinions clearly differ, but I'd like to touch on that final comment you made. You say that Bridge has better cover in Gallas and Terry, and that's definitely true, but even so, Wayne is much better defensively than Roberto. In one-on-one situations, in group defending, whatever. Bridge is better.

True, but I have to say that Carlos is just as good and probably better in the offensive side of the game.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


I highly doubt that. You stated, "I mean he is an English footballer, and I don't rate their kind highly." If that doesn't imply a negative connotation on the fact that they are English, then I don't know what would.

All I mean by that is I don't rate the English National team that highly at all, and Bridge sometimes doesn't even start for the team. Yes, I should have said it in a better fashion. It is NOT a cut on the Country, the people, the personalities of the people, or the Government, just about the football. Don't get me wrong, there have been many good English Footballers in the past, but I can't find any in the present day. So I apolgise if I offended you, again. If you want to make more of it, thats your problem.

Okay, so Beckham and Owen are overrated...I fail to see how that reflects on English players in general at all. And I think a lot of England fans are glad you don't coach their team because while Alan Smith is a fine player, he certainly does not have the scoring ability of Owen.

It does reflect on it, because the top two players for England (supposedly), of course Captain Beckham and Owen, are overated in the world stage. Okay, maybe Beckham is a good leader, put I find it hard to believe he is a world class footballer. If he was French, he wouldn't even hold down a starting role for Les Blues. Same goes for Owen. I would start Smith in front of Owen because he would add more to the team IMO. Don't worry, I would not want to take that job anyway.

English teams are not comprised of exclusively english players, nor are continental teams comprised exclusively of players from their respective countries. Therefore, I don't see how your argument justifies your generalisations.

If you mean about generalizations of the EPL, then I do have a stronge point. The League is weaker than others in Europe, because bang-the-ball up-field gameplay works very well against bad defenses, which are comon in the EPL. SOME teams in the EPL would find it rather hard to compete against the strong teams and defenses of the Serie A. And the style of gameplay used by EPL teams is why they have not had much success in Europe. Sorry, but the facts tell the truth, and I can see why English clubs have only played in one C.L. Final in the past 17 years.

And what might those reasons be?f

Just from what I have seen this season from both respective players in the Champions League. Thats all. MY OPINION.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by Andrea Becchi ] ++
All I mean by that is I don't rate the English National team that highly at all, and Bridge sometimes doesn't even start for the team. Yes, I should have said it in a better fashion. It is NOT a cut on the Country, the people, the personalities of the people, or the Government, just about the football. Don't get me wrong, there have been many good English Footballers in the past, but I can't find any in the present day. So I apolgise if I offended you, again. If you want to make more of it, thats your problem.

I never said that you were making a cut against the Country, the people, the personalities of the people, or the Government. You "made a cut" against the footballers of that nation based upon their nationality. I've already stated why I find that offensive, and it's not because I'm making more of it than it is, and it's not because I'm British (because I'm not).

++ [ originally posted by Andrea Becchi ] ++
It does reflect on it, because the top two players for England (supposedly), of course Captain Beckham and Owen, are overated in the world stage. Okay, maybe Beckham is a good leader, put I find it hard to believe he is a world class footballer. If he was French, he wouldn't even hold down a starting role for Les Blues. Same goes for Owen. I would start Smith in front of Owen because he would add more to the team IMO. Don't worry, I would not want to take that job anyway.

Fine, Beckham isn't worldclass, whatever you want to say about him, that's good. I'm not going to argue that ridiculous statement, but when you say that a player isn't as good as another, because he's English, that offends me.

++ [ originally posted by Andrea Becchi ] ++
If you mean about generalizations of the EPL, then I do have a stronge point. The League is weaker than others in Europe, because bang-the-ball up-field gameplay works very well against bad defenses, which are comon in the EPL. SOME teams in the EPL would find it rather hard to compete against the strong teams and defenses of the Serie A. And the style of gameplay used by EPL teams is why they have not had much success in Europe. Sorry, but the facts tell the truth, and I can see why English clubs have only played in one C.L. Final in the past 17 years.

Again, saying that English teams aren't good proves nothing about English footballers. The EPL is not comprised of exclusively english players, nor is any team in the league. How then can you judge the players of an entire nation based upon the performance of teams that do not repressent that nation?

 

[Adrian]

he has signed...not what i wanted when there are so many other GOOD defenders available.

ermerson? give cash plus DV...must keep maresca!

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Ian ] ++


I never said that you were making a cut against the Country, the people, the personalities of the people, or the Government. You "made a cut" against the footballers of that nation based upon their nationality. I've already stated why I find that offensive, and it's not because I'm making more of it than it is, and it's not because I'm British (because I'm not).



Fine, Beckham isn't worldclass, whatever you want to say about him, that's good. I'm not going to argue that ridiculous statement, but when you say that a player isn't as good as another, because he's English, that offends me.




Again, saying that English teams aren't good proves nothing about English footballers. The EPL is not comprised of exclusively english players, nor is any team in the league. How then can you judge the players of an entire nation based upon the performance of teams that do not repressent that nation?

Okay, I see your point. But the statements about the teams of England do hold some truth about them, that they are a little behind those of Italy, Spain, and even Germany. But the thing is that most of the English teams that have competed in the C.L. in the last couple of years, with exception to Arsenal, have that core of centered around English players, like Beckham and Sheringham for Man. U. and Owen and Gerrard for Liverpool. The fact is that the problem for them is not only the coaches, but also stems down to the players. These same players who can't produce in the National competitions find it hard to produce in European competitions, and that is rather easy to see. So I do find it kind of hard to believe that a team whose best players are Beckham and Owen will lead their nation to victory, and the same goes for those players in the club situations.

Again, I am sorry if I offended you, and I should have thought out the statement a little more carefully. There is the apology again, take it or leave it.

 

[Fighters]

I do not understand how we are signing players when we have not even decided who is the coach for next season. Moggi should wait to see who the new coach wants and style of players he needs.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Fighters ] ++
I do not understand how we are signing players when we have not even decided who is the coach for next season. Moggi should wait to see who the new coach wants and style of players he needs.

But it's not like some players will be shite under one coach and superstars under another, if u know what I mean. Sure, some players might have the best brought out of them by particular coaches, but it's not dangerous by any means to go shopping prematurely

 

[juvegeo]

you are right Graham,
wellcome in Juve ZEBINA !!!
maybe he isn't best defender, but i'm sure that juve's defending line will be stronger

 

[Lippi.am]

++ [ originally posted by Fighters ] ++
I do not understand how we are signing players when we have not even decided who is the coach for next season.

Do you really believe that Moggi doesn't know the name of the new coach??? WE don't know who will be in charge, but I'm sure HE knows
It would be foolish to bring in players without coach approval. So I think that DD (or Prandelli) has given his 'no-objection' and Moggi sign Zebina.

 

[juvegeo]

maybe you are right,
i think this idea is not far from trust (privet ot gruzii)

 

[A_LAcki]

I think that Zebina's arrival means the dumping of Bonera! I really hope he can improve........

 

[Tina]

++ [ originally posted by Graham ] ++

Sure, some players might have the best brought out of them by particular coaches, but it's not dangerous by any means to go shopping prematurely

especially if such players are for free

 

[Alex]

he's free- no big deal any he's not that... bad.
I hope this means were clearing out our old defenders and actually purchase 2 new promising defenders though. so Zebina will be a good experienced yet young defender to have on bench.

 

[Tina]

and hope that he will play better than our old/young deffence