You're going to hell if you __________ (8 Viewers)

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
No, they're not telling anything different. They are simply forbidding further examination of the manuscripts. The first examination was in the 1970's. They all descovered that this version of the Qur'an is not the same as the "original". The Muslims also say that it's not the same but they say it is like that because it's just a bad copy.

Now, the Sana'a manuscripts are interesting because they have two layers of script. This original script was washed off from the parchment so that it might be used again. It's nothing strange, it was a common practice back then.
But without applying special technical means the older script is not readable. All we know that it's also the Qur'an, and it's a version even older than the one dated in 649-690.
We can see the older script using ultraviolet light underneath the newer text. It couldn't have been done at the time of the first examinations. Now we can do it. But the Yemen authorities don't allow it.

Maybe they already did it and they didn't like what they read?
They can go ahead and do what ever tests they like. I don't believe in some conspiracy involving the Yemeni authorities. Yemen doesn't own the thrown to Islam and they don't stand the risk of losing anything should it be revealed that the Qur'an has changed.

But hey, while the Yemeni authorities are blocking this project, maybe these people should turn their attention to Jammu & Kashmir where it is said that Jesus Christ is buried.
 

Buy on AliExpress.com
Jan 7, 2004
29,704
I know that my English is very poor and I've said that before
but is it something i have to be a shame off
The only thing i care about is to make my self clear as possible as i can

Spelling or grammar mistakes are the only things concerning you in this issue!!!

you are pathetic and really don't deserve to be taken seriously

that is why i didn't criticize you English spelling skills chump, merely your ability to use a spell check. i can't spell for shit myself.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,908
They can go ahead and do what ever tests they like. I don't believe in some conspiracy involving the Yemeni authorities. Yemen doesn't own the thrown to Islam and they don't stand the risk of losing anything should it be revealed that the Qur'an has changed.
And you think the Yemeni authorities decided on their own not to allow further examination?

I'm seriously asking this, because you're much more familiar than i am with the muslim world: If it's proven without any doubt that the Qur'an has changed during the first Hijra centuries, what will be the consequence(s) of such proof?
 

BlanquiNegro

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2006
949
No, and neither do I believe that god would have been created out of nothing like that boat you describe, so it doesn't actually convince me of anything.
I was not trying to convince you of anything with that example
I just wanted to say that there is something behind everything and nothing can be made by itself , nothing at all
its a sciantifical fact which you can't reject

God is saying that he is the first and the last and nothing before and after him
He is saying that he is the only God
And he is the one who created everything including the universes
Its hard evern for me as a muslim to beleive all that strong claims without giving the God himself the chance to prove it
its like that
you beleive in his existance and then you will beleive in anything he said
and his existance for us as a Muslims has been approved with numerous of facts from different fields

and those facts are not like that something expected to happen and it did coincidentaly
because they were not expectations or guessing
they were pure sciantific facts

will come back to you with the embryology thing while that i rally hope that you take a second look at Ze and alen posts abou the age of the first copy of the Quran



The difference is I know how a boat or a movie is made. I've seen a movie made lots of times and I know exactly how it happens. I have NOT seen how a universe is made, not even once (and neither have you). Therefore I have absolutely no argument to say that it must be created this way or that way.[/QUOTE]

God created the universes , the sky, the sun, the moon etc
we all didn't witness that nor anyone else and its mentioned in Quran
قال الله: مَا أَشْهَدْتُهُمْ خَلْقَ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَلا خَلْقَ أَنفُسِهِمْ
I hope someone translate it for you because i really don't know how to say it in english
Sciantific facts = his existance
very simple equation
The other thing is , there is no single mistake in The Quran
not to forget to mention that alot of atheists tried hard to find one over the last decades but all of them failed even to question a single one
Isn't that a miracle by itself?

BTW
Quran is the only living miracle
 

jukazem

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2007
4,964
And you think the Yemeni authorities decided on their own not to allow further examination?

I'm seriously asking this, because you're much more familiar than i am with the muslim world: If it's proven without any doubt that the Qur'an has changed during the first Hijra centuries, what will be the consequence(s) of such proof?
How do we know that the Yemeni one wasn't the one(or the only one) that was altered! :p

And as far as I know, the Qur'an was memorized by the Hafiz and only written down when it was feared that all the Hafiz may just die in battle or something. -So any altered text would have been pointed out probably by some people(some group of Hafiz) consequently there would have been different Muslim factions like Shi'a, Sunni and Kurds reading different Qur'ans. Don't know if they already do that though :S
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
I was not trying to convince you of anything with that example
I just wanted to say that there is something behind everything and nothing can be made by itself , nothing at all
its a sciantifical fact which you can't reject
Then neither can god. Case closed.

Either it's possible for something to come "out of nothing", in which case we don't need god. Or it's not possible, and therefore not possible for god to exist either.
 

BlanquiNegro

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2006
949
And you think the Yemeni authorities decided on their own not to allow further examination?

I'm seriously asking this, because you're much more familiar than i am with the muslim world: If it's proven without any doubt that the Qur'an has changed during the first Hijra centuries, what will be the consequence(s) of such proof?
Never Alen
and the thing is that
the copy of Quran we have now is exactly the same as the oldest copy existed
i don't know if the oldest one is the one in Turkey now
but we have a lot of old copies and all of them are the same, exactly the same

and BTW
there was a debate about the story of that copy found in Yemen and the Guy who was trying to proof his theory was never taken seriously
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
And you think the Yemeni authorities decided on their own not to allow further examination?

I'm seriously asking this, because you're much more familiar than i am with the muslim world: If it's proven without any doubt that the Qur'an has changed during the first Hijra centuries, what will be the consequence(s) of such proof?
I honestly don't know what the Yemeni authorities have done. This is the first I've heard of foreign researchers questioning the authenticity of the Qur'an. I know that Turkey has compared the oldest Qur'an in their possession with current copies and have found it to be accurate to the tee.

I'm not able to answer your second question because as a Muslim there are too many proofs in the Qur'an that exist today whether it has or has not been changed for me to question my faith. Furthermore, this won't make a single difference in your opinion, but in the Qur'an God has promised to preserve the Qur'an forever because in the past (the Bible and Torah) were subject to change and manipulation.
 

BlanquiNegro

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2006
949
Then neither can god. Case closed.

Either it's possible for something to come "out of nothing", in which case we don't need god. Or it's not possible, and therefore not possible for god to exist either.
And here is the difference
God is not like anything else
He is absolutely unique in just everything
and that's why he is God
God is saying that if you think about him you will never belelive in him and his existance becasue its impossible to even imagine how does he look like
but all what you have to do i sto think about his creations and then and only then you will realise that he is a real thing

Just give my a chance to finish the Emryology thing
because i have alot of other sciantifc proofs to mention
 

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
Huh. So in other words any genuine examination of a lead that might indicate the book isn't perfect would be welcomed most eagerly?

EDIT: sentence didn't make sense
 

Zé Tahir

JhoolayLaaaal!
Moderator
Dec 10, 2004
29,281
Huh. So in other words the opposing force to any genuine examination of a lead that might indicate the book isn't perfect would be welcomed most eagerly?
It depends on the intentions of the investigator. If his sole purpose is to ridicule and find the falsehood of Islam then he won't be welcomed. That'd be like me coming to your house to make sure your grandmother is as old as she says she is. But if they just want to run tests on it for the sake of historical record then I don't see what they wouldn't be welcomed.

If Geert Wilders wants to discuss Islam in a civilized manner then he will be welcome to, but him making movies and desecrating the Qur'an is not the approach that's going to be welcomed.
 

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