If I didn't think the Qur'an was accurate or presented/told the truth in its entirety then why would I believe in it?
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You're going to hell if you __________ (21 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bjerknes
- Start date
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You are back?
Didn't notice that
Anyway
You are asking me to keep quite
hmmmm
i don't remember when i got engaged with u in this thread
I am not intelligent i know that
but i am so sure that you r not as well
U claimed that you are neutral in many occasions but u failed to proof it
so i don't think someone like u would have the ability to even get close to change my mind in anything
U don't have the ability to convince because all what you r saying is just BS
Second thing
i am not the one who is doubting or questioning anything here
i have my faith and beliefs and you are the one who should stay far away from it
Third thing
I don't take orders from PPL like you
so SU
have a nice evening
Didn't notice that
Anyway
You are asking me to keep quite
hmmmm
i don't remember when i got engaged with u in this thread
I am not intelligent i know that
but i am so sure that you r not as well
U claimed that you are neutral in many occasions but u failed to proof it
so i don't think someone like u would have the ability to even get close to change my mind in anything
U don't have the ability to convince because all what you r saying is just BS
Second thing
i am not the one who is doubting or questioning anything here
i have my faith and beliefs and you are the one who should stay far away from it
Third thing
I don't take orders from PPL like you
so SU
have a nice evening
First of all, There is nothing in ethics that is Not debatable...
There is no right ethics or wrong ethics, every religion has its own "utopia" and "code of ethics" that sees it the most perfect and each and every one has some logic behind it.
As for Islam, Some People quote verses from the Quran that are aggressive towards none Muslims but there are also other/more verses that prevents the abuse of none Muslims. The Quran basically tells you to treat everyone with piety and brotherhood regardless of their religion, race or any other difference... UNLESS they become your enemy . While Christianity Promotes "turn the other cheek" , Islam understands it as a symbolism for forgiveness yet as a none practical solution that ends with you being abused.
The Quran tells us to prepare ourselves with as much power as we can against our enemies (or suspected enemies) but NEVER TO ATTACK. In other words, the message is war in self defense NOT war for conquest, land, money etc.
Terrorists and the likes look for ways to "legalize" the killing of innocents as a war in self defense. Something like: This man works as a doctor, he gets paid and he pays taxes... Taxes goes to the government... the government funds the military.. the US military attacked Iraq and therefore The doctor(who actually saves life) is involved in the abuse of Iraq.. and his agreement for paying taxes meaning he is willingly involved in the war so killing him will be "in self defense".
It is absurd how these people make their links.. its worse than the zeitgeist movie and the result is that everyone in the world who does not have access to what islam is end up falsely linking terrorism to Islam(special thanks to the media).
The next point i want to touch on is another misconception which is Islam is fascist.. meaning Islam Promotes Muslims over others.. this is not entirely false as the "US and THEM" is clear amongst Arabs. However my problem is with those who think that Islam says to kill nonemuslims or to treat them like shit etc.
this is false, In an Islamic society..an Islamic utopia to be precise... Muslims and None Muslims live together normally with piety, love etc.
There are no TAXES in the islamic Utopia.. the government does not collect money from the people however there is something in replacement which is the ZAKAH (its obligatory). The ZAKAH is a calculated % of one's wealth that he has to give out to the poor.. so its like a tax but its a religious one made to help the poor. The money of the Zakah goes to what is called "Beit el Mal" meaning "The house of the money" and when the poor are in need they go to the house of the money and they take money.
As i mentioned above, the zakah is obligatory for MUSLIMS yet the house of money is open for EVERYONE... kinda like the American tax payers and the illegal immigrants argument in so far as the immigrants use the services that the legal Americans paid for.. while they pay nothing. And here comes the role of the Jizyah.. its a tax that nonemuslims have to pay that is almost equivalent to the muslims' Zakah. The verse someone quoted in the last 2 pages tells us that none muslims must pay the jizyah if they are to stay under the protection of a muslim state. It is not a form of abuse against none muslims.. however as the muslim empire grew larger..corruption too grew larger with time and the governments back then(abbasids,Umayids. ottomans etc.) raised the Jizya tax to unbearable rates thus forcing nonemuslims to convert (only on paper ofcoarse) to escape the jizya. My point is that the Jizya system was initially correct as the prophet preached but after his death (and the first 4 caliphates) corruption fucked the system.
One last point about the misconception which says muslims should treat none muslims badly or killem etc.
Some facts about islamic law that would make the picture clear:
1) Muslim Men can marry christian women.
2) The Jizya system which by definition presupposes the existence of nonemuslims in a muslim community.
3) a story about the prophet: He had a jewish neighbor who hated the prophet. He lived next door. Everyday the jewish guy used to put his stool and trash at the prophets door. The prophet every day used to clean it and say nothing about it except for asking god to guide the man to the right path. This kept going on for a LONG time..years.. then 1 day the prophet didn't find the man's shit at his door so he asked where did the man go? what changed? he was told that the man was very sick and was dying.. the prophet went and visited him and told him that he will pray to god to forgive the man.. the man was shocked and surprised.. he burst into tears and apologized to the prophet for his wrong doings. He was touched when he found that the prophet came to visit him and wished him a recovery and forgiveness
after all what he has been doing to the prophet.
He became a muslim that day .. he died a few days later.
Factual note: Copper has been used since the Bronze age, They mixed it with tin(if i remember correctly) and used it in creating Bronze. The bronze Age is prior to Islam with many many years.
There is no right ethics or wrong ethics, every religion has its own "utopia" and "code of ethics" that sees it the most perfect and each and every one has some logic behind it.
As for Islam, Some People quote verses from the Quran that are aggressive towards none Muslims but there are also other/more verses that prevents the abuse of none Muslims. The Quran basically tells you to treat everyone with piety and brotherhood regardless of their religion, race or any other difference... UNLESS they become your enemy . While Christianity Promotes "turn the other cheek" , Islam understands it as a symbolism for forgiveness yet as a none practical solution that ends with you being abused.
The Quran tells us to prepare ourselves with as much power as we can against our enemies (or suspected enemies) but NEVER TO ATTACK. In other words, the message is war in self defense NOT war for conquest, land, money etc.
Terrorists and the likes look for ways to "legalize" the killing of innocents as a war in self defense. Something like: This man works as a doctor, he gets paid and he pays taxes... Taxes goes to the government... the government funds the military.. the US military attacked Iraq and therefore The doctor(who actually saves life) is involved in the abuse of Iraq.. and his agreement for paying taxes meaning he is willingly involved in the war so killing him will be "in self defense".
It is absurd how these people make their links.. its worse than the zeitgeist movie and the result is that everyone in the world who does not have access to what islam is end up falsely linking terrorism to Islam(special thanks to the media).
The next point i want to touch on is another misconception which is Islam is fascist.. meaning Islam Promotes Muslims over others.. this is not entirely false as the "US and THEM" is clear amongst Arabs. However my problem is with those who think that Islam says to kill nonemuslims or to treat them like shit etc.
this is false, In an Islamic society..an Islamic utopia to be precise... Muslims and None Muslims live together normally with piety, love etc.
There are no TAXES in the islamic Utopia.. the government does not collect money from the people however there is something in replacement which is the ZAKAH (its obligatory). The ZAKAH is a calculated % of one's wealth that he has to give out to the poor.. so its like a tax but its a religious one made to help the poor. The money of the Zakah goes to what is called "Beit el Mal" meaning "The house of the money" and when the poor are in need they go to the house of the money and they take money.
As i mentioned above, the zakah is obligatory for MUSLIMS yet the house of money is open for EVERYONE... kinda like the American tax payers and the illegal immigrants argument in so far as the immigrants use the services that the legal Americans paid for.. while they pay nothing. And here comes the role of the Jizyah.. its a tax that nonemuslims have to pay that is almost equivalent to the muslims' Zakah. The verse someone quoted in the last 2 pages tells us that none muslims must pay the jizyah if they are to stay under the protection of a muslim state. It is not a form of abuse against none muslims.. however as the muslim empire grew larger..corruption too grew larger with time and the governments back then(abbasids,Umayids. ottomans etc.) raised the Jizya tax to unbearable rates thus forcing nonemuslims to convert (only on paper ofcoarse) to escape the jizya. My point is that the Jizya system was initially correct as the prophet preached but after his death (and the first 4 caliphates) corruption fucked the system.
One last point about the misconception which says muslims should treat none muslims badly or killem etc.
Some facts about islamic law that would make the picture clear:
1) Muslim Men can marry christian women.
2) The Jizya system which by definition presupposes the existence of nonemuslims in a muslim community.
3) a story about the prophet: He had a jewish neighbor who hated the prophet. He lived next door. Everyday the jewish guy used to put his stool and trash at the prophets door. The prophet every day used to clean it and say nothing about it except for asking god to guide the man to the right path. This kept going on for a LONG time..years.. then 1 day the prophet didn't find the man's shit at his door so he asked where did the man go? what changed? he was told that the man was very sick and was dying.. the prophet went and visited him and told him that he will pray to god to forgive the man.. the man was shocked and surprised.. he burst into tears and apologized to the prophet for his wrong doings. He was touched when he found that the prophet came to visit him and wished him a recovery and forgiveness
after all what he has been doing to the prophet.
He became a muslim that day .. he died a few days later.
Factual note: Copper has been used since the Bronze age, They mixed it with tin(if i remember correctly) and used it in creating Bronze. The bronze Age is prior to Islam with many many years.
Sura 60
The Test (Al-Mumtahanah)
[60:7] GOD may change the animosity between you and them into love. GOD is Omnipotent. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.
[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.
The Test (Al-Mumtahanah)
[60:7] GOD may change the animosity between you and them into love. GOD is Omnipotent. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.
[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.
i am glad we agree on that...
i disagree though on merging science with religion (i think someone was discussing that earlier).. The Quran is not read in a literal sense for many reasons. Most of the knowledge we can understand from the Quran is analogical knowledge only.
Some people claim to say that you can get science facts from the quran when they find something in science that goes hand in hand with a word in the quran taken in the literal sense. If you take every word in the literal sense then the God described in the Quran cannot exist.. its all metaphorical and analogical knowledge.
either you take every word in the literal meaning and see what you get, OR take all as metaphorical and try to explain it.
i disagree though on merging science with religion (i think someone was discussing that earlier).. The Quran is not read in a literal sense for many reasons. Most of the knowledge we can understand from the Quran is analogical knowledge only.
Some people claim to say that you can get science facts from the quran when they find something in science that goes hand in hand with a word in the quran taken in the literal sense. If you take every word in the literal sense then the God described in the Quran cannot exist.. its all metaphorical and analogical knowledge.
either you take every word in the literal meaning and see what you get, OR take all as metaphorical and try to explain it.
