Will Lack of Creativity Hurt Us This Season? (2 Viewers)

[Erkka]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++

But what I also see quite frequently is not much support for the strikers, and with every long ball we resort to there is always a huge gap between the forwards and midfielders. Zlatan will have the ball all by himself with no support around him, and with our tactics we saw the problem this posed last year against Liverpool....we couldn't even hold on to the ball for very long in our attacking third. The easy way to solve this problem would be to just field three forwards like Stuart is suggesting and we will have much more support in attack. As I said, that, along with creativity, are our two major problems facing us going forward.

Well actually that was one of my original points. It's true that the at least someone from the midfield should come higher on the field while attacking, since you shouldn't ever underestimate the power of the "second wave".

On tactics, many of you seem to forget or are just ignorant about Capello's preferred tactics in his previous teams. Don Fabio has a fetish for 3-4-3, and I'm sure that Juve will go with it at least for parts of the season. Zambrotta and Mancini are ideal wingbacks, while I'm certain that Nedved and Camoranesi could easily handle the task when season goes forward and they've got the touch with their new position in training etc. Why I'm certain? Well, Camoranesi could handle the midfield position with 4-3-3, yeah Zebina helped a lot but so what? He defends pretty well, he did hard work on both ways last season, he can cope with it. And when it comes to Nedved, his work ethics are one of a million. He's determined enough, he can do it. As Paul suggested in other thread, he could even be a DM, so why not wingback? It wouldn't be THAT major of a change.

As for centrebacks, I'm sure that Cannavaro, Thuram and Kovac could do the job, and if not, then the bench offers a lot of options. Zebina, Giannichedda and Gladstone probably in that order could cover the protection needed.

 

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[Dominic]

++ [ originally posted by John #10 ] ++


apart from camo emo vieira neddy mutu, olivera and rambo.

You're exactly right John. I don't understand where this underrating of our own players is coming from. Supposedly our players don't even come close to Xavi's and Alonso, to name two...

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++


I do.
.

:cheesy: Thank you.

++ [ originally posted by Erkka ] ++
As for centrebacks, I'm sure that Cannavaro, Thuram and Kovac could do the job, and if not, then the bench offers a lot of options. Zebina, Giannichedda and Gladstone probably in that order could cover the protection needed.

Actually I'd like for Giannichedda to be sub nr1 for both midfield and defence, even above Kovac. The guy played some impressive games as cb for Lazio.

Good to see you posting again by the way, Errka.

 

[- vOnAm -]

++ [ originally posted by Stuart ] ++


I think that the examples you have given have more to do with creating than finishing. Adriano created his first goal for himself and Pizarro created the third one. Sure, the finishes were excellent, but Adriano only found himself in the position to finish because those chances developed as a result of individual skill and the player's creativity. We don't have a central midfielder in the side who could have provided an assist similar to the one Pizarro did.

How would you rather Juve play; create ten good chances and take three or four of them or create three chances and take two of them? The more chances we create the more likely we are to put one away.

Well, I have never said that we didn't lack creativity, I just think our forwards, even with the current lack of creativity could do more. With that said it is obvious that I would prefer a more creative midfield which would provide more chances for our forwards. In fact I was saying it in the general needs section, that we still didn't have a creative midfielder. And yes perhaps I am talking about creativity without realising it, but refering to the creativity upfront then.

I was givin another angle of our poor goalscoring abilities.


@Errka : I don't believe I've come across u in this forum, but I don't really care what you think. BTw, i have seen many Inter games and most of the times Adriano and Obba look good upfront, and not only because they have midfield support.

 

[Mr. Gol]

++ [ originally posted by Stuart ] ++


I beg to differ. Del Piero, Cassano and Mutu are all a lot more creative than Nedved and they are more natural playmakers as well. There's no doubt in my mind that the team would be more creative and therefore less predictable with Dp, Casso or Mutu operating with a free role somewhere behind the front two. The creative forward would be starting from fairly deep which opens up another option. At present when our strikers get the ball they are usual backing the goal, but if DP, Cass or Mutu start in a deeper position they can take on defenders if they wish. Personally I think the trident would see an increase in creativity, chances created and ultimately goals if used correctly.

I didn't say that Del Piero and co. weren't creative. Because most attacks begin in midfield you need a midfielder who can cut through the opponents midfield with his passing. Because Nedved isn't really a good passer a lot of potentially good attacks get wasted because they are executed too slow and predictable. Using Del Piero or Mutu to help out the midfield would partially solve this problem, but a Pizarro-type midfielder would be the best option. Because of our surplus of forwards 4-3-3 does seem to be the best option at the moment.

 

[JCK]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


Oh please, you really think Emerson, Vieira, Nedved, Olivera, and Zambrotta are truly creative players? I don't think so. Emerson is predictable as they come when the ball is at his feet....he just is very good at accomplishing what he's set out to do. Vieira is a good passer but doesn't have much creativity, pretty much the same as Emerson. These players are pretty much straightforward when the ball is at their feet. Zambrotta is a winger and is very quick with the ball at his feet and makes incisive runs, however his passing is not really that good and he's never looking for difficult passes. Nedved has drive but his passing is not entirely good and doesn't have much creativity. Olivera is just crap and the only creative player we have is Camo and he's always running up and down the wings. These players come nothing close to Xavi, Pirlo, Pizarro, or Xabi Alonso for instance.

I think that some people are not able to tell the different between hard work and creativity. I poated that somewhere a few days ago but I cannot remember where. There I talked about Nedved's creativty versus his hard work. I think in this case all of the players John mentioned fall under the hardworker category rather than the creative one.

 

[Stu]

++ [ originally posted by Jeeks ] ++

I think that some people are not able to tell the different between hard work and creativity. I poated that somewhere a few days ago but I cannot remember where. There I talked about Nedved's creativty versus his hard work. I think in this case all of the players John mentioned fall under the hardworker category rather than the creative one.

Agreed, Nedved, Emerson, Vieira and Zambrotta definitely aren't creative players.

 

[#10]

have u guys ever played football??

Emo and vieira are not only hard workers, they pass and move the ball around, their movement and control of the middle createspace and oportunities for others....for me that is creative.

You guys mistake flair and vission for creativeness.

EMo and paddy may not have flair but they have good vision, other wise how would they both control their former midfields?

Neddy doesnt have much flair, but his hard work and aggressive nature creates opportunity, again creative....jus not flashs or technical.

Same for rambo.

You dont have to be full of flair or skills to be a creative player/

 

[Stu]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


If you check the Tactics and Formations thread in this respective forum, I gave a few hints at what Capello might do with Cassano and Mancini in the squad.

If Zambrotta and Mancini take the wings in a 3-4-3 system I think Camoranesi would take a more advanced role, perhaps playing behind the two forwards or playing right forward next to Ibrahimovic and Cassano. Of course this is just speculation and trying to fit all these players in the same team would be rather difficult.

Here is something I thought up earlier today and I like the looks of it. Of course this would be very attacking and Capello would never try it, however something like this would perhaps solve our creativity and attacking problems:

Buffon

Zebina - Thuram - Cannavaro - Zambrotta

Camoranesi - Vieira

Mancini - Cassano - Mutu

Ibrahimovic


In this highly risky system Camoranesi would basically play a deep-lying playmaker with a little bit more freedom to move forward while Vieira holds in midfield. Of course this would be at the expense of Emerson, however Capello could take Mutu out, switch Mancini to the left wing role, move Camoranesi up to right wing, and put Emerson next to Vieira again. That would be much more realistic while still being very potent going forward.

But yeah, check that tactics thread Stu.

I like the looks of that team but as you correctly pointed out, Capello would probably never try something like that. Emerson and Trezeguet definitely figure in Cap's first team plans.

 

[Stu]

++ [ originally posted by John #10 ] ++
have u guys ever played football??

Emo and vieira are not only hard workers, they pass and move the ball around, their movement and control of the middle createspace and oportunities for others....for me that is creative.

You guys mistake flair and vission for creativeness.

EMo and paddy may not have flair but they have good vision, other wise how would they both control their former midfields?

Neddy doesnt have much flair, but his hard work and aggressive nature creates opportunity, again creative....jus not flashs or technical.

Same for rambo.

You dont have to be full of flair or skills to be a creative player/

That's not what creativity is. You're talking about being able to create space and opportunities, you don't have to be creative to do that.

The dictionary states: CREATIVITY - involving the use of imagination to create something.

Zambro, Emo, Vieira and Neddy create things but they are not creative. Have a look at the Football Manager 2005 manual, they give a very good description of creativity and it does not apply to the aforementioned players.

 

[#10]

++ [ originally posted by Stuart ] ++


That's not what creativity is. You're talking about being able to create space and opportunities, you don't have to be creative to do that.

The dictionary states: CREATIVITY - involving the use of imagination to create something.

Zambro, Emo, Vieira and Neddy create things but they are not creative. Have a look at the Football Manager 2005 manual, they give a very good description of creativity and it does not apply to the aforementioned players.

So are u telling me steven gerrard isnt a creative player?? Are us telling me the old nedved was a creative player??

But become can pass and have vission?? and isnt a creative??

For me "creative" is used very inappropirately in football. Its used to describe a certain style of player, like an aimar or a totti. But all they are imho are playmakers.

It take imaginations to tackle a guy and that make a pass along the flanks, thats creative.

If u talk about ur version of creative, only people like aimar who create a pass, or spot a neat through ball thank to skill and vision, are creative. This imho is merely passing skill and vission.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Dominic ] ++


You're exactly right John. I don't understand where this underrating of our own players is coming from. Supposedly our players don't even come close to Xavi's and Alonso, to name two...

That's right, they don't. Especially in the creativity and passing department. If you think Emerson and Vieira are creative as Xavi you are not being objective. Both of our players are decent passers but predictable.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Jeeks ] ++


I think that some people are not able to tell the different between hard work and creativity. I poated that somewhere a few days ago but I cannot remember where. There I talked about Nedved's creativty versus his hard work. I think in this case all of the players John mentioned fall under the hardworker category rather than the creative one.

Exactly right Jeeks. Both Vieira and Emerson are very mechanic, able to pull off most of the plays they try to execute. That is NOT the same thing as being creative.

 

[#10]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


That's right, they don't. Especially in the creativity and passing department. If you think Emerson and Vieira are creative as Xavi you are not being objective. Both of our players are decent passers but predictable.

ive seen paddy string many a beautifull through ball for henry, and his link up play, first touch, 1 touch pass have been impecable for his career, all he lacks is the extreme vission of say aimar or xavi, then he would be a "creative" players. Ditto for emo.

 

[#10]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


Exactly right Jeeks. Both Vieira and Emerson are very mechanic, able to pull off most of the plays they try to execute. That is NOT the same thing as being creative.

Creative merely means they can improvise with vision and technical skills.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by John #10 ] ++
have u guys ever played football??

Emo and vieira are not only hard workers, they pass and move the ball around, their movement and control of the middle createspace and oportunities for others....

I don't see anything in this post that has to do with individual creativity.

Sure, they can pass the ball well, however the difference is making the easy or predictable pass instead of the more difficult, surprising pass that only stems from the creativity of a player and his ability to execute it. I never see Emerson make those deft through balls that a Xavi or Pizarro make time and time again. You know, the more difficult sort of passes. Vieira and Emerson can make passes all day long, however they are only of the predictable variety. That's the difference.

 

[#10]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


I don't see anything in this post that has to do with individual creativity.

Sure, they can pass the ball well, however the difference is making the easy or predictable pass instead of the more difficult, surprising pass that only stems from the creativity of a player and his ability to execute it. I never see Emerson make those deft through balls that a Xavi or Pizarro make time and time again. You know, the more difficult sort of passes. Vieira and Emerson can make passes all day long, however they are only of the predictable variety. That's the difference.

so u are basically say all paddy and emo lack is improvisation?

 

[- vOnAm -]

I think this is where the difference between what I was saying before about our strikers not having the finishing moves and lack of creativity.

To some extent I agree with John #10, Emerson and Vieira both can make great passes (through balls and such) both have proven this in their past clubs.

Although i wouldn't exactly categories them as creative players (because although they have some creativity they are not the best and far from bieng one).

Now, IMO, the thing that has been lacking in the two past seasons are not only the passes from midfield but also from the runs our forwards make, which Stuart rightly corrected me, as bieng our forward's creativity. I just see that our forwards aren't making the runs so our midfield can't do more.

But this also has something to do with not having enough width in our attack. Camo always drops back and towards the middle, same goes for neddy. We don't have a player that hangs a bit towards the side of the field who can dash when counterattacking and create space for our forwards to play.

 

[#10]

++ [ originally posted by - vOnAm - ] ++
I think this is where the difference between what I was saying before about our strikers not having the finishing moves and lack of creativity.

To some extent I agree with John #10, Emerson and Vieira both can make great passes (through balls and such) both have proven this in their past clubs.

Although i wouldn't exactly categories them as creative players (because although they have some creativity they are not the best and far from bieng one).

Now, IMO, the thing that has been lacking in the two past seasons are not only the passes from midfield but also from the runs our forwards make, which Stuart rightly corrected me, as bieng our forward's creativity. I just see that our forwards aren't making the runs so our midfield can't do much.

But this also has something to do with not having enough width in our attack. Camo all ways drops back and towards the middle, same goes for neddy. We don't have a player that hangs a bit towards the side of the field who can dash when counterattacking and create space for our forwards to play.

Im agreeing with this, it seems we dont have someone who breaks from midfield to join the attack, neddy used to do it hence why he scored the goals.

Thats why i think mutu will surefice as he will naturally support the strikers.

PLaying Zlatan and trez is naturally gonna restrict chances bar lobbed passes and crosses, as trez doesnt have the sufficient movement.

 

[sateeh]

Well guys one thing i have to ask here..................................................Do u guys qualify Arsenal as a creative team ?
and do u label DP,mutu, zlatan ? as creative players ?

 

[sateeh]

OK i will make my point right away

arsenal used to play with viera-gilberto , in the middle of the park, but they were a very creative team.Thats becuz they creative wingers and creative men upfront


So this leads me to OUR players...zlatan, alex, mutu even cassano if he comes r all players that like to get back and help out the midfield or take the ball from the flanks offensively.Even on the 18yrd box, then they could produce that SUPER pass that everyone is waiting for.OR do something very unpredictable.

U dont neccessarily need creative players in the middle of the field.For me i like strong DM's that produce efficient passing and dispossing of the ball.I think that we have. So overall we're not ssoo bad in the creativity department.
Although its good to have options but if we dont have them its no problem