Who was right... (1 Viewer)

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#81
You insulted Baggio and you have to understand he means a lot to a lot of Italians and a few non italians

You can bash his football skills if you want as thats your perogative but insulting his person is something that i do not subscribe to

Btw Baggio is a very important part in Juve's history
 

Sagha

New Member
Aug 27, 2002
35
#82
By the way Denco I just have read in the WC forum the post where u have answer to football italia about the rating of the NT in the WC...

Just to say that I will have EXACTLY gave the same rating to the players that u did, except for Del Piero, I will even get him a 6.5 (5.5 against ecuador, 7 against Mexico, 6.5 against s.korea = 19 / 3 = 6,33 so lets round it to 6.5)

Im too very glad for u to see that u were published and u did a so great job...I think its cauz of hypocrits like this guys that our calcio is completly on mars...Overating players like Totti can only harm Italy...

PS: the most laughable rate IMO was the one of Panuci, I mean its cauz of this guys that we were put out by korea on the ball of the 1-1 he did a mistake that even a boy of 8 years will not have done...With this error he start already at 5.5 and according to the fact that he did nothing special in the others game, the 5 is the most logical rate
 

Vinman

2013 Prediction Cup Champ
Jul 16, 2002
11,481
#83
++ [ originally posted by Evelyn8 ] ++
:eek:

who have I insulted

:frown:


I know Vinnman is mad at me since he has been bombing me with pm's

about AMerica etc......

So it wouldn't surprise me that you try
to kick someone who is already lying down.....

:dontcare:
Far from the truth, LIAR !!!!

I only pm'ed you once, TO RETORT THE VERY IGNORANT PM THAT YOU SENT ME !!!!

I should have just ignored your ignorant comments
 

Sagha

New Member
Aug 27, 2002
35
#86
Well as far as I renember, I always knew Vinman like a great person who have always interesting opinions..

Wich is not ur case...In fact Iv read some of ur post in others threads and Ive notice that often u have a childy behavior...And I dont tell this only cauz everytime u can u bash Baggio, but also cauz of ur general attitude...U seem to be closed in ur world and worst then all u provok other people...And dont say that u have insult anybody, cauz when u tell me thing like read this sentence 100 hundred time...and u can keep ur misinformed dillusinary too... I mean maybe sometimes I say a little attak like everyone but u just talk to me like if I was ur dog and worst then all u think that u understand something about Juve...(i was an ultrà of juve when Baggio was there)...

So u better keep ur opinion for urself cauz u havnt any knowledge to share and I dont care about ur attak cauz if u want to start the insult games I swear u that u will regret it
 

Evelyn8

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2002
584
#87
++ [ originally posted by Sagha ] ++
Well as far as I renember, I always knew Vinman like a great person who have always interesting opinions..

Wich is not ur case...In fact Iv read some of ur post in others threads and Ive notice that often u have a childy behavior...And I dont tell this only cauz everytime u can u bash Baggio, but also cauz of ur general attitude...U seem to be closed in ur world and worst then all u provok other people...And dont say that u have insult anybody, cauz when u tell me thing like read this sentence 100 hundred time...and u can keep ur misinformed dillusinary too... I mean maybe sometimes I say a little attak like everyone but u just talk to me like if I was ur dog and worst then all u think that u understand something about Juve...(i was an ultrà of juve when Baggio was there)...

So u better keep ur opinion for urself cauz u havnt any knowledge to share and I dont care about ur attak cauz if u want to start the insult games I wear u that u will regret it
Yea will saying BAggio was the biggest star because he decided to baloon the ball over the goal

only to make sure Taffarell doesn't touch sound pretty outragaus to me.

Later claiming things like he is second to Maradona is also outrageous..........

in10 years time non-Italians will know remember Romario better for WC94 then Baggio.

After all it was Romario who got the world player award that year.
It is he who has a god medel from the most prestigous tournament.

And he hsa also been named world footballer of the year.

But in Contradiction to Baggio
He won many titles at PSV and at Barca.
:(
 

Sagha

New Member
Aug 27, 2002
35
#89
Here is not the point...I mean I can have my beleives, its my right, now u can not agree with them, its your right, but its not up to u to decide if something is outrageous or not...Everyone can have his own vision of the life but only God can decide what is right or what is wrong, we all have our turth, this doesnt mean that ur truth is THE truth....

For example I can easy say that Romario was far from the award that he won in 94...In fact I consider that a persone who watch the FULL match of Brazil should have seen all the chance that Romario misses...Only against Italy he loosed incredible oppurtunities, one of them in front of the empty net...And if for example a player like Albertini would have score the winning goal, Romario will be renemeber like the big delusion of the final...So he hasnt his faith in his hands, and this only to show u that different view can be shared...

I mean its obvious that u dont like Baggio (at least in part) cauz of Del Piero, but maybe u never knew what Del Piero said on Baggio in the years 94 95...U only make u an opinion cauz (maybe) u were frustrate, like most of the "simple" Del Piero fans, in France 98.

For me Del Piero is a good player and he disapointed me a lot, not cauz of his head, but cauz of his game, its true that his game has improve, but anyone in Italy will say it: there will never be again a Del Piero like the one before 98...Is it true???? Peronaly I dont care so much, Its true that he was a good surprise in the last WC and that he should have been used more but he generaly fall too quickly when he shine again.

I mean Baggio never disapointed me and that for this that I consider him as the biggest of all time, even better then Maradona, and beleive me Im not the only one to think so. In fact its not a penalty who can change my mind, even one second after I had no hate against him, cauz to fail is human and only children can not assume the fact that sometimes in life it doesnt go like u would. I dont judge Del Piero for his pk loose against Deportivo, for example, but i judge him overaly for the performances that he show on the field, like I do with Robi and all other players...

Of course like u (and others) said Robi will be renemebr for his pk in 94, but when I know this I feel quiet, in fact i know deep into me that only superficial people who hasnt ask themself a lot of question about life can think like this...All the others, the men who knows that in life u can fail but that the important is to raise again, know what is the valor of Robi as a player, as a man, as a fighter.

A lot of people would have put Robi in the grave from many times, but he is still here, still like before, and many people who falls in "dogma" instead of "episteme" see this like an act of arrogance and prefer hide his performance under a lot of hypocrisis and false arguements...I mean the only things that Robi done that can disturb people is to never have stop to shine...And even if today we dont talk like this anymore we will never know what the WC could have been with Robi the wizard and the fact that Italy fails (even if I suffer for this) prove that what I was saying before the WC was true...

But another time people prefer to be hypocrits and thats why Robi has decide to continue his quest, to prove ANOTHER TIME that all the hypocrits were wrong, he will never let them have the last word, cauz he is a fighter and he will always raise from his ashes and this is what all men should do in the world to suceed in thier life.

Now I think here is a juve forum isnt it? So u should have a little more respect for some values, because like we (old ultrà) always said before a juve game "Roberto guarda il cielo, perche' solo lui e' più grande di te"
 

Sagha

New Member
Aug 27, 2002
35
#90
And I was forgetting one thing:

About the title that a player can win...Well I dont think that it show the true valor of someone to look at what he won...Of course a player is part of the squad and the players like Baggio and Romario must have a decisive influence in the result of their team...But its too a lot a question of causualities....I mean that for example does Massaro desserve all the title that he won with Milan?? I mean that if Baggio would have stay in juve who know that juve will not have won one or two more champions league??

U can be a mythic player like I think Gary Lineker was and win nothing or not much more (1 spain cup and 1 english cup) and this has not keep his humour away: "Football is a sport who is played by eleven players, but at the end Germany always win"...In fact he played in a period where Germany was overaly better then England, but I cant find a single player in the 80's 90's germany who was better then Gary...

The same goes for Baggio he played in juve when Milan was unbeatable overaly but IMO there wasnt any player in Milan, even Van Basten (who is still a legend IMO), who was better then Robi...Does this explain all the merit of Massaro title??

Thats what I call causalities...
 

Sagha

New Member
Aug 27, 2002
35
#92
And whats the point exactly? I mean when I first come here last year 80 of my first posts were made on the same thread...The things important is the quality of the post not where he is...
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#93
U can be a mythic player like I think Gary Lineker was and win nothing or not much more (1 spain cup and 1 english cup) and this has not keep his humour away: "Football is a sport who is played by eleven players, but at the end Germany always win"...In fact he played in a period where Germany was overaly better then England, but I cant find a single player in the 80's 90's germany who was better then Gary...
You gotta be kidding me are you now saying you think Lineker was better than Klinsmann, Voeller and Mattheus


The same goes for Baggio he played in juve when Milan was unbeatable overaly but IMO there wasnt any player in Milan, even Van Basten (who is still a legend IMO), who was better then Robi...Does this explain all the merit of Massaro title??

Thats what I call causalities...
[/QUOTE]Don't wanna disappoint you there but em Baresi, Van Basten were better than Baggio imo.
 

Sagha

New Member
Aug 27, 2002
35
#94
Well I always like Lineker as for what he is, a pure goal scorer and yes for me Germany did not have a better man in his team...But thats my personal feelings...And u should know well the problem if u r English...

England in 86 and in 90 were eliminated by the futur World Champion, for me in 90 they were on the same level of Germany and Italy...and yes I think people like Gazza and Waddle were great but I never saw a finisher like Lineker (ex: the goal against Germany in semi a goal of pure striker)

Now I would not put Baresi and Baggio in the same category, cauz Baresi will never have (and did never have) the 1/1000th of the teknik of Baggio but he had a great placement on the field who made him IMO the best defender of all time (at least italian)...Now for Van Basten its a question of opinion, but I think that a player like him should more be compare to players like Vialli...In others words people who can do everything with a ball in the air...Baggio is a "field player" (like Maradona or Platini or even eventualy Bruno Conti) I mean by field player the fact that he always play the ball in the ground and rarely score volley goals or heads...

EDIT: Now to end the comparaison btw Maradona and Baggio I will tell u why I find Baggio better...U know, and beleive me please, I spend A LOT OF TIME to watch carefuly frame by frame movement of Diego and Robi and I must tell that I never found 2 similar players like this two..The skills r the same, the dribble is the same, the predilection shoot is the same, the manner to take fk is the same, the vision of assist is the same, the one men show is the same, all is the same and I swear when I say this I try to be as objective as possible...But for me Robi is better cauz of his humility of his strenght and his courage, I never saw vanity in Baggio...He is still here year after year and this make him better the Maradona...

Now all the question of the title won and the single handed stories (dont forget people like Carnevale Alemao De Napoli or Ferrara too) is only causalities for me, under better circumstances Baggio could have won MUCH MUCH more
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#95
LoL

Very good. Baggio better than Maradona even in humility, excuse me are you saying Maradona was vain

What you are in fact trying to convince everybody is if Baggio was in Napoli with Ferrara , Alemao, Carnevale, Careca and De Napoli, they would have won the league

But you do not think that Maradona with Vialli, Ravanelli, Moeller, Kohler, Conte

Look at this pic very closely, Maradona left Napoli and the best they ever did after he left was come fourth with basically the same players but now in seriB

Baggio left Juventus and they went on to win league 4 times, cl once, Intercontinental cup

Maradona with Argentina won the wc almost by himself scoring 5 golas and creating all but 2 of the goals that Argentina scored in the tournament

Baggio was runner up in a better team in 94, scored 5 goals set up none and apart from his goals , i cannot remember anything memorable he did in the wc
 

Sagha

New Member
Aug 27, 2002
35
#96
Well that what I call causalities...What u have say could have hapen...To be frank I dont really care from this point of view, when I judge a player I look at him individualy..I look at his potential and u seem to forget that Baggio did have a lot of problems everywhere he went even in juve in the beginning Trap made him play in a wrong manner... I can just give u a hint Denco: dont judge too quickly...

U want an example??? some facts?

OK i will with all the die respect give u an example of ur unawarness on Baggio:

U told us some posts ago that Baggio failed to qualify Italy for Euro 92??? Fine but u seem to forget one little thing: Baggio did play only 2 games and a half out of 8 in the qualfication because of a problem he had with Vicini and in 2,5 games he scores 2 goals...Its Rizzitelli and Vialli fault if we were not qualified...And in the middle of the qualif Sacchi took the team and after one more stupid game he reintroduce Baggio, but it was too late and we were out...then Baggio score some goals and did big imporession in friendly instead of the euro...like the prestation he gave against Holland before the qualif when he scores in a friendly...

So u see, ur unawarness can blind u and make u understand false things, then u fall in "doxa", renember that at least what u say u should be sure of it...
 

Sagha

New Member
Aug 27, 2002
35
#97
And again I could say that u cant compare Napoli and Juve...Or that Baggio could have done what Maradona has done in 86 if he wasnt injuried against Brazil...or for example if he had play more in 90 and in 98...Dont u think that del piero is a little bit involved in Italy defeat in 98? and Vialli in 90???

Look man in 90 we were out on semi: Baggio did not start the game

in 94 we were runner up: Baggio was injuried

in 98 we were out in 1/4 Baggio did not start the game

in 02 we were out on 1/8 our worst result since 86 and Baggio wasnt here (like in 86)

Do u see thats what I call casualties

As u can see football is not simple to judge and thats why I feel angry when I see people like Evelyn come and talk about outrage without a valid reason...Im sure that in this world a lot of people think that Pele or Maradona r the best ever without having them see at least 10 minutes playing...The influence of others can be strong and sometimes ur old friend can tell u that someone is the best and u will beleive him without having see anything
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
#98
You see what you want to see and thats all that matters to you but please do not compare Baggio favourably to Maradona because its too funny to be true

As for Euro 1992, i do remember Vincini discarding Vialli after the wc90, and i remember Vialli not playing even though he was the leading goal scorer in Serie A and everyone was saying how come Vialli was not playing for Italy
 

Sagha

New Member
Aug 27, 2002
35
#99
Do I need to put the stats online???

I dont see what is funny, all my argumentation is sadly (for u) so true, of course it is my truth, but my truth is so logical as I never lie in my words...
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
You tell me that you say Baggio is better than Maradona and you do not find it funny

I know you are Italian and love Baggi and all that but plz give this a break its an insane suggestion and I am not argentine but i will tell youthis they do not belong in the same league I am sorry

Compare Baggio to Dp, compare him to Totti, Zz, Raul and the rest but leave the really big boys outta this argument
 

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