Which team do you like to be our next opponent in CL? (8 Viewers)

Glen · Mar 20, 2003

I.... don't know what to say to that... maybe I didn't read it carefully enough

.

Then I think you should have chosen your words more carefully

as anyone with any experience with rhetorics classes will say you gave your comment a distinct 'air', by downplaying DP's likelyhood to play a positive part, while elaborating on the possible detractions.

Well- Trezeguet did get to all his necessary chances against United and Rio Ferdinand. Uncharachteristically he wasted them. Doesn't make him less of a handfull though. Depor lost him twice and it was one goal and one post. We just disagree on Trez. We should propably let that one sleep?

Come on mate. Don't patronize me like that

. If you don't think consistency matters... then we disagree. If you don't think Barca losing 9 games and winning 8 in the league this season, allowing 33 goals while scoring 38, from 26 matches is a sign of an inconsistent club- then I have to disagree. If you don't think Milan's lack of form is cause for concern for them... I disagree. If Valencia's form of 8 points from it's last 6 games is no cause of concern for them (Depor which we beat is number one in Spain looking at form over the last 6 rounds with 16 points).... then I'd disagree as well.

No. I'm rarely impressed. If you believe Lippi's Juve is really out to impress I just think you're wrong. Lippi's squad is too thin, and at every single turn he can he tries to rest players. We ahve weaknesses for sure, and since we hardly ever see all our offensive weapons at the same time it's very difficult to say how good we can actually be. We rely too much on certain individuals, but last I checked there's reason to suspect Nedved, Del Piero and Trez will all be there for the run in, and I believe they looked mighty fine at the end of last season together. Just a shame that we didn't find the same form before it was too late in CL.

It's folly also to only point out when your own team is having difficulties while ignoring that our rivals home and abroad have the same or comparable problems. When 'calculating' our chances against another team- both teams form and performance levels must be counted, while I also agree that the big match ability is very important. I just refuse to put TOO much emphasis on our European losses this season. Basel was utterly irrelevant. The first United game OK, the second inexcusable yet so surreal we all know it has nothing to do with our standart. Compares with Valencia's 0-3 debacle against Roma.

Sure- I can be bored as well. I can ask for better football, and transfers to help to that effect. But it doesn't change that when you measure the propable rate of success- you can't be blind to the fact that Juventus primary isn't playing great football. It's succeeding with a minimum of trouble. It always was- only some years back we were just better than anyone else also in Europe. Lucky or uninspiring as we sometimes are- we DID beat Depor when we had to, despite them being GREAT and we DID get back when 2-0 down at Riazor. We are in the quarters, while dragging our feets to get there, but Real are in the quarters too courtecy of a 92nd minute Portillo equalizer. Valencia are there too because of Carew's complete fluke away against Roma etc. etc.

Remembering back to old Lippi campaigns- did we march through qualifying back then? With the exceptance of one season- no we didn't. I'm ALL positive with respect to voicing concern about the way we play, but when measuring our results and likelyhood of succes against those of others- I think it would be kinda fair if we projected the same criteria on to our opponents.

Ciao.

Huzi · Mar 20, 2003

well , i didn't know that there are new UEFA rules that can see Juve play against AC Mailn in the quarters, so it wil be between Barca , Valencia & AC Milan . . i would pick Valencia cause they are being overrated as they are an-average team with many weak spots as i saw in their match against Arsenal , the gunners dominated lot of that game but failed to score from their chances while the spanish side scored 2 goals from their only 2 chances in the whole game , furthermore don't forget that they crashed to AS Roma 0-3 in the Mestalla staduim & scored an-injury time goal in spain also against Ajax , therfore as a conclusion they are a team that Juve can beat with a solid performance (not like the Depor match).

denco · Mar 20, 2003

Well under Lippi , Juve have only struggled once in the Cl and that was when we lost to Real madrid in the finals , the 2 previouis occassions we waltzed thru the league stages

As for your talking about Barcelona in their own league and Milan's struggles , can i just ask you when we were going gr8 guns what was our score against Man united?

Last season we won the league, but did we beat Inter, Roma, Lazio or Torino?

What problems are you refering about anyways , who won't struggle with an egomaniac like Van Gaal in charge?

Every team has thier injuries so its not an excuse for a big club its just the club's fault if they do not buy good back ups

Not placing too much emphasis on losing in Cl? If I am not mistaken of the 8 teams we have lost the most in Cl this season, probably with Milan but Milan lost unimportant games why we lost 3 relevant games and one to Basel which technically was not really a dead game

denco · Mar 20, 2003

++ [ originally posted by mate ] ++

I'm not going to start an other argoment... but why you have to speak like you are "holding the truth" and the others always misunderstood or have wrong ideas? (I always choose my words carefully but it seems some ppl on here do not read carefully)

And especially how can you judge like this? (I do expect more from you Glen) More from what? Who told you that who have ideas different from yours is wrong?

Is this what I think it cause proplems, not your ideas (also when they are silly) cause I guess everybody of us write no sense or not objective things sometimes, and that is normal in a forum, like is normal to disagree; but I see you as the only one who say them writing "It is obvious that", "you must realize that" or this sort of things, like you knew everything and ther's not discussion, you are right even when you're against the evidence, and all the rest of the world is wrong...

I do wish you put your opinions on the topic at hand not your ill advised comments

If you have anything to say about the topic , contribute , if not you are no good to anyone

mate · Mar 20, 2003

It was a friendly suggestion and anycase look before and check out who is ALWAYS the first to put "ill advised comments" instead of contributing to the topics... Funny that its YOU to show off with something like this... if you really think this is the best thing to do why you are always doing exately the opposite???

denco · Mar 20, 2003

Have i offended you in another life or is it becasue i do not show the same devotion to Baggio that has got up your nose? How can you say what u said was friendly? You constantly personal attack me and i think you should be warned by the powers that be. Everything you take personally, I was having a good convo with Glen and you butt in, I do not agree with what you say and I try to pint them out but yours is usually that I am trying to change the cause of history or that i act that i know better than others

I am trying to be nice and polite but do not push your luck, you seem to get the benefit of the doubt maybe becauce they think you misunderstand things language wise but you are not slow with excellent english to make personal attacks

anyways enough is basta

Respaul · Mar 20, 2003

Cheers guys,

For once I was really enjoying reading what was shaping up to be a proper debate between the 2 best posters here, and you have to go and **** it up.

Cant you 2 jus make a thread where you can argue with each other so you can each get it out of your systems whilst not ruining thread after thread..... No Offence intended!

juvelover · Mar 20, 2003

are u kidding me ??

do u consider these as good players with attacking mentalty ?!!?

rufete : what makes him so special he no better than any average player in sieire A.

Baraja : he is good player but wrong pick if u consider him attacking player !!!! and that was all about what am saying !?

killy Gonzalez : he is famous because he plays for Argentina that's all .

Vicente : his form is 1 or 2 good games in 10 to 15 matches

Juan sanchez : Amorsou is better than him

if i were a manager i would release him for free

Angulo : average decent player ,,, not more than a sub if he was in juve .

Carew : hahahahahhahahaha what a shame he kicked arsenal out ,,,, if we rate the best world strickers where would u rank him ???? number 50 ? 100 ?

maybe some of my qoutes was not real but what i ment is that Valencia's team isn't that kind of teams that plays with attacking mentality so watching them spoiling games after scoring reminds me of Boring boring Arsenal graham days .

Ian · Mar 20, 2003

You two should get a room. :LOL:

mate · Mar 20, 2003

The fact that I fell free to say what I think about you it's cause is till I joined this forums that I find your post attakking me nearly right after every post I write... don't know the reason... maybe cause I have a player you do not like in my avatar, maybe cause I'm Italian, maybe cause I do not have DP poster in my room or who knows?

To be onest you are bodering me (of course) but I'm not pist 4 it, I found it funny, if not I wuold stop answering you long ago, but you cannot hope to behaive like this whithout me to say nothing if I feel like... so if you do not like to have arguments the answer is easy: JUST STOP STARTING THAM!!!

It was a friendly suggestion just read it again, I just told you that if you expone your ideas without pretending you are holding the truth and without expess any judgement to who is not thinking the same they can be seen from a different point of view, whatever they have sense or not...

mate · Mar 20, 2003

Yep that's a good idea :thumb:! Denco write me in ptv from now on when you want to say me something not nice, but please do not be too rude cause the moderators cannot check it!

Glen · Mar 21, 2003

True. I was only partially in the zone on that one

. One could be tempted to say that group stages had also begun before Lippi abdiziced in 1999 though (that's my last line of defence). However- on the whole- I conceede.
I do think it's important to notice that Italian football in general declined from then on, and I consider it wrong to expect that we'll be waltzing through. There are many great teams out there and we're one of them. Leverkusen got into the final last year, and as I recall it they saw a 4-0 whipping at Delle Alpi before injury problems mounted.

Are you talking this season? The 0-3 thing? Do you honestly feel Zambrotta's mistakes, Conte's pass or Tudor's header onto the post; Trezeguet's header, Conte's post, Trezeguet's denied penalty and the absurdity of pour poor second alf display is indicative of our ACTUAL level?

I'm not talking about last season. I'm talking about this season Last season I didn't think us good enough to win anything. We won because Inter failed. SerieA last year was intolerably poor. There's a marked improvement also noticeable in the fact that 3 Italian sides are through where none succeded the past two years in Cl and the fourth representative lost their hopes on the final day where 1 goal in their match and one in the other would have seen them through, and Lazio is in the semifinal of the UEFA too.
This season our only bad serieA patch started with the loss at home to Lazio (undefeated at foreign grass and with a kickass team by all accunts) . We've been robbed of a San Siro victory against Inter in the last minute and we beat both Inter and Milan (our scudetto rivals) in superior fashion at Delle Alpi (I believe a 2-1 can be superior when we had numerous chances for additional goals and Milan didn't have a single shot on target apart from the penalty goal and one Rivaldo attempt. We just RULED that match against a Milan team in great form). The fact that we're doing alot better this year than last both in terms of quality of play and results in a serieA which is improving quite a lot when judging on the European campaign- that's in my opinion a very encouraging sign.

Then check their Liga form with Antic. Better than the despised Van Gaal? Sure. 'Barca quality'? 2 wins- 4 draws (4 draws against firm relegation candidates I think) No way. By the way- I agree Van Gaal was tremendously bad for Barca when the end was nigh, but his team had won all it's CL encouters too, and he has quite the successfull track record title wise with Ajax and Barca wouldn't you say? Just to reliativize things a bit.

True, and I never denied it. Still- when you judge our chances against the team we're drawn against tomorrow, will you be looking at the POSSIBLE class of that team with all players available and in it's best form, or the LIKELY quality or the form as judged by the players available and the quality of it's current brand of football? For me it will be the latter. I will see Milan as a team with as many or more stars than real Madrid, yet a team that isn't working whatsoever. I will see valencia as a tough obstacle by all accounts, but no more than can be overcome for sure if we play to our ability. I'll see Barca as a team that will most propably be without it's only defender that could be of use at Juventus in central defence, and it's captain Luis Enrique; at the same time a formiddable opponent as it's a volatile and moody one; embroiled in financial problems and Presidential elections and a club we can sure defeat just like can defeat us.

I said I did not place must importance on THE losses we've had, because I do not see why they MUST be indicative of the future results as the personel is quite likely to be rather different in the ties to come, and unlike you I have the firm belief that the 0-3 drubbing (which to me is the only unacceptable result), was too surreal to even ponder the likelyhood that this is what we're all about. To me a loss isn't always just a loss. When we lost 3-1 at Highbury last year or when were completely outplayed by Depor at Riazor- THEN I felt that we had simply faced better opposition and had no place in the proceding matters. That hasn't been the case this year.... not if you were to subscribe to my opinion on the Juve-Man.U game at least. Had opne turn of faith been on our side that night (Conte goal, Trezeguet goal or penalty) the match could ahve easily been completely different. I have hardly ever seen a more absurd game.

And couldn't you use a few smilies to lighten up the whole thing a bit

?

Mate: I'd appreciate if you do not use any of Denco's posts or part comments directed at me to launch bickering, as I'm well capable of debating without it. We're cool apart from that, and I have no intention of being part of what there might otherwise be going down between the two of you.

mate · Mar 21, 2003

Don't worry, it has nothing to do with you

Is just something starded in another trade and ended up here but as Shadowfox said it is something who is better to reserve 4 ptm or 4 a "special trade" and I hope it will happen like this.

denco · Mar 21, 2003

I don't normally use similies because i usuallu use the quick reply in which similie does not work for me but i am lazy

Do not get me wrong, I do feel that we can beat Valencia and Barcelona on a given good day but those days are not usually in Cl

Valencia are very hard to break down and though i do not think Carew a gr8 gola scorer , he does score golas and he is harder working than Trez

They have not being as impressive of late since they beat Liverpool and do have players who frankly I do not rate like Rufete and Mista but Id rather meet a team who give you space to play as we are not that creative to be honest so opening them up maybe a problem

Barcelona, well to be fair I do no not fear them but they do have a big stadium and they have quick forwards and i am not that confident with our defenders as regards pace but hey we could hit the kinda form which took us to the final in 98

Milan is a different kettle of fish as they seem to know how to play in Cl and if you know about Real madrid and Barceloan , you will realise how Cl is diff from league as in the league Real madrid hardly score let alone win at the Nou camp but in Cl they went there and won 2-0 so Cl is a very diff competition

Glen · Mar 21, 2003

As I suspected we'ren ot in total disagreement on much anyway. I'm just generally a more positive and less demanding bloke regarding Juve than you are

.

One thing however... something I find extremely puzzling both when debatting with Milan fans at Xtratime and now you.
What on earth would be the difference from meeting Milan in CL as opposed to serieA... FOR US??? I can accept and agree that Milan's modus operandis might well suit encounters with Spanish teams or X other nationality better than does ours, but when we beat them (rarely ever lose at least) in serie A and there's motivation a plenty for those ties, what could possibly be different if we were to meet them in CL? You're not telling me you think a foreign ref. would be decisive in their favor are you?
Ahh... just saw the Madrid analogy... Tell me denco.. did you see that match

?

Btw. I believe Milan played one good game in CL's second stage; at home to Madrid. The away win at Dortmund was more lucky than anything I've seen in a long while, and credit to them for taking that luck.

Hydde · Mar 21, 2003

im with you in every point of this paragraph.
last year, after the performances against depor and arsenal, it was veyr clear that juve was doing a very bad show. It was noticeable the superiority of arsenal.
this year, we maybe did not the best second phase, but the losses were not so horribly. Ok 2-1 in manchester, but it was out of ur hands. The loss against them at home, was a ultra rare game.
Juve is not the worst of the 8 teams, cuz everyone have weak points and bad games too. And like someone said before, we beat this season inter, and milan both, with an extraordinary performance against milan. I dont know why you complain so much people.

denco · Mar 21, 2003

Yes I saw the 2 games between Barca and real madrid if thats what you are asking

Well to answer your question regarding cl and the league i will just say it is the same reason why reginna will beat us at home in the cup and be defeated 5-0 in the league

I just think their players are geared towards winning the Cl or doing well in it while we have players who are more consistent than brilliant

Glen · Mar 21, 2003

NO WAY you just pulled the Italian cup analogy

!!!!

Milan were first in the standings and rocking home and abroad- in the biggest matchup in serieA, full house at Delle Alpi (well, virtually at least) and you're telling me it's a matter of motivation?

Them being a dandyish lot is one thing; them being on the highassed "this game is good for nothing" attitude at home to Chievo or away to Reggina I can kinda follow (although, had I been a fan, never tolerate), but THE big game in Italy, with lots of pride and prestige at stake... nonononono!!!!

As for the Barca-Real game. Real scored first and played on the counter where they got their 2-0 goal. That prompted them to play the same at home to insure passage, but Barca was in my opinion the better team and deserved more. That is football, and the fact that Barca didn't score first was hardly because of Real Madrid being a clearly superior side or having a better 'CL mentality' but because Barca just didn't convert.
Like Juve annihilated Inter and comprehensively beat Milan because we got the early go-ahead goals whereas it could have easily been cagy business if major problems for us if it had been the reverse.

Is that in fact the thing? That you consider Real the better exactly because they did take their chances and in the end looked comfortable winners? I just think the element of chance is much more pronounced in the knockouts than that. Leverkusen going all the way to the final last season beating better teams and being THE proverbial losers in my opinion underlines that.

Desmond · Mar 21, 2003

barca.

i'm really fearing fast teams in the CL now....milan wouldn't be pretty considering that they'd be hungry for revenge...ajax would be pretty scary if you look at van der vaart,van der meyde, maxwell, mido etc.

Tom · Mar 21, 2003

Glen, Denco..wow! what can I say, that is what forums are made for..can't believe I missed the chance to disagree with glen :down:

Which team do you like to be our next opponent in CL? (8 Viewers)

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