What is your god like? (3 Viewers)

[rounder]

Atheism doesn't say anything, it's not an organization or philosophy.

What would I say to them? I would send them to a therapist to get their life in order instead of telling them fairy tales about ultimate justice and the afterlife. When you're suffering the most productive thing you can do is face up to it.

And you know what? People who have been victims of racism often go on to fight racism. People who have suffered from a disease often dedicate themselves to fighting that disease. Because THEY have seen how serious the problem is. That's what we can do in life, we can make a change to prevent the same suffering to others. Instead of telling ourselves fairy tales and doing nothing while we wait for salvation.

What did Neo do? Did he take the blue pill and go back to living inside the Matrix? No, he faced up to the sad reality and he gave himself to the cause of ending the war. If he hadn't done that the machines would have destroyed Zion and killed every free human alive.

I'll tell you why. Because religion treats all humans as helpless victims. Tell them a story and make them feel better. Instead of telling them the truth and helping them fight injustice.

You say these stories are all fantasies and religion is false. What makes you so sure Martin? How can you possibly know all this? I thought you were the modest one that claimed to know nothing but you seem to know so much about religion that you seem rather confident in dismissing it like that.

If you want to talk about reality, let's do just that. I am talking about the children in Africa who in reality will never have any attention or receive any care or even food for that matter. Are you going to send them a psychiatrist? These children can barely speak FFS. I never said we should instill those who suffer with fairy tales and made up stories, I said we should give them hope to pick themselves back up and live no matter how harsh their reality.

The Bible seems to have given hope to so many people, and who are you to judge them? Whoa re you to say these stories are not real? Who are you to say that no one has ever experienced God? How can you state religion is false.

Here's what I think. You may seem like the rational and logical type on the surface, but in reality, everything you say is out of pure emotion rather than reason when it comes to religion.

 

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[rounder]

Dude, no. That's just not true. Reliable historical evidence would be video footage in this case. There's no true reliable historical evidence in general, let alone in this case. Most of your evidence is coming from people who believe in Jesus anyway.

And trust me, I'm going to be better at this than you.

Do you have video footage of Alexander the great or Julius Caesar? Or for that matter any piece of history that goes back more than 500 years?

Ofcourse my evidence will come from people who believe in Jesus, if you saw a man performing miracles infront of your very own eyes and resurrecting from the dead, would you not believe in Jesus? In any case, eye witness accounts include skeptics as well as Jews. Really, try and research it.

 

[rounder]

You claim to know the nature of the universe.

Ain't that just a little bit arrogant?

Hey, at the end of the day who isn't?

You and Martin seem utterly convinced that the Bible is just a big fairy tale and that God does not exist although you hold no evidence for either. You also maintain that anyone who claims to have experienced God is delusional. Ain't that a wee bit arrogant as well?

 

[Martin]

You say these stories are all fantasies and religion is false. What makes you so sure Martin? How can you possibly know all this? I thought you were the modest one that claimed to know nothing but you seem to know so much about religion that you seem rather confident in dismissing it like that.

Why shouldn't I be? I never claimed to know nothing. That's what you claim in your signature. Let's review that, shall we? Today alone you profess to knowing:

• A supernatural god created the universe
• Happiness can only exist if there is suffering, and these two have to be in some sort of balance
• You claim to not be quite sure what this balance is
• Without theism people who are suffering have no hope in life

Is this the testimony of a man who knows nothing? This amount of knowledge is a million times more than I could ever hope to have. When are you going to start taking your own advice?

If you want to talk about reality, let's do just that. I am talking about the children in Africa who in reality will never have any attention or receive any care or even food for that matter. Are you going to send them a psychiatrist? These children can barely speak FFS. I never said we should instill those who suffer with fairy tales and made up stories, I said we should give them hope to pick themselves back up and live no matter how harsh their reality.

I said I would send people who have experienced trauma to a psychiatrist. I never said send out psychiatrists as if they were missionaries. You made this up.

The Bible seems to have given hope to so many people, and who are you to judge them? Whoa re you to say these stories are not real? Who are you to say that no one has ever experienced God? How can you state religion is false.

Because I know something about human nature. I know we are not perfect. I know that when someone says he saw something supernatural it's much more likely he's hallucinating. I know that when someone is desperate he will likely invent a reality for himself that is not the real thing. I know that when someone is hopeless he will do anything to find hope, and it doesn't matter if it has anything to do with the truth. I know that people are gullible and easily believe what other people tell them. I know that people are easy to manipulate if you really want to.

This I know. It's not much, but it's more than enough to dismiss god in a heartbeat.

Here's what I think. You may seem like the rational and logical type on the surface, but in reality, everything you say is out of pure emotion rather than reason when it comes to religion.

Whatever you say man.

 

[rounder]

Why shouldn't I be? I never claimed to know nothing. That's what you claim in your signature. Let's review that, shall we? Today alone you profess to knowing:

• A supernatural god created the universe
• Happiness can only exist if there is suffering, and these two have to be in some sort of balance
• You claim to not be quite sure what this balance is
  [*]Without theism people who are suffering have no hope in life

Is this the testimony of a man who knows nothing? This amount of knowledge is a million times more than I could ever hope to have. When are you going to start taking your own advice?

A supernatural being created the universe.

I believe I have many reasons to believe this is true, yes. I will never be so ignorant as to say that I am 100% sure.

[*]Happiness can only exist if there is suffering, and these two have to be in some sort of balance
[*]You claim to not be quite sure what this balance is


I claimed that this is a possible answer to your question," How can a loving God permit suffering". I do not know this for sure, but it seems like a fairly rational explanation. Like you said, I was speculating, and that's all we can do.


[*]Without theism people who are suffering have no hope in life

No, I said that theism offers hope to some people who are suffering in life, to people who have lost hope completely and a small pep talk isn't enough for them. Not all people who are suferring need theism, that's not what I said.

Because I know something about human nature. I know we are not perfect. I know that when someone says he saw something supernatural it's much more likely he's hallucinating. I know that when someone is desperate he will likely invent a reality for himself that is not the real thing. I know that when someone is hopeless he will do anything to find hope, and it doesn't matter if it has anything to do with the truth. I know that people are gullible and easily believe what other people tell them. I know that people are easy to manipulate if you really want to.

This I know. It's not much, but it's more than enough to dismiss god in a heartbeat.

Notice how just a few moments ago, you professed to knowing for sure that these people who experienced God were in need of serious help. Now you are merely stating that it is likely they need help. The truth is, you do not know the first thing about experiencing God and you have no right to state whether others have or haven't. You can't prove them wrong, thus why not maintain a neutral opinion on the subject rather than dismiss people who have genuinely experienced God.

That's it for me tonight. Good night.

 

[DelpieroForLife]

that life in the universe was inevitable? i already explained that, sheer number of planets determines it.

Planets they were there before the starting point?

 

[Raz]

Notice how just a few moments ago, you professed to knowing for sure that these people who experienced God were in need of serious help. Now you are merely stating that it is likely they need help. The truth is, you do not know the first thing about experiencing God and you have no right to state whether others have or haven't. You can't prove them wrong, thus why not maintain a neutral opinion on the subject rather than dismiss people who have genuinely experienced God.

Well if you believe that some people genuinely had expirience with god, than you are not neutral, you believe 100%. You to contradict yourself here, because you just said that you dont believe 100%.

Could you answer how do you know which are genuine experience and which are fake? What criteria are you using here.

 

[rounder]

Well if you believe that some people genuinely had expirience with god, than you are not neutral, you believe 100%.

I never said I was neutral, I was suggesting that Martin should be neutral. I will not believe 100% percent because I think it is unintelligible to do, as it is if you believe that God does not exist 100%.

If I ever experience God firsthand, then that 1% of doubt I have will go away.

 

[Martin]

Notice how just a few moments ago, you professed to knowing for sure that these people who experienced God were in need of serious help. Now you are merely stating that it is likely they need help. The truth is, you do not know the first thing about experiencing God and you have no right to state whether others have or haven't. You can't prove them wrong, thus why not maintain a neutral opinion on the subject rather than dismiss people who have genuinely experienced God.

You're making stuff up again. I never said people who are religious need "serious help". I said people who do need serious help are much better of with a psychiatrist than religion.

I have every right to state whatever I want to state.

And you can't prove that Donald Duck isn't god anymore than I can prove these people are delusional.

thus why not maintain a neutral opinion on the subject rather than dismiss people who have genuinely experienced God.

Let's see, should I go to work tomorrow or sit home and maybe a suitcase full of money will appear in front of me? Gee, it's so hard to decide. They both seem very reasonable choices. But you know? In the end I'm going to pick the one that is most likely.

Should I cross the street? There's a chance I will be hit by a car. Even if I can't see, technically it could be a car traveling so fast that I wouldn't be able to see it before it comes. Or it could be an invisible car. But if I stay on this side of the road I will never accomplish anything in life. So I cross the road.

We make choices everyday that are grounded in probability. It's irrationality of the highest order to be "neutral" about god anymore than it is to be neutral about the possibility of seeing a dinosaur on your way to school.

 

[rounder]

Could you answer how do you know which are genuine experience and which are fake? What criteria are you using here.

Sure, a fake experience is a hallucination. A real one is not. Since I have never experienced either firsthand, I am in no position to state my opinion. But many have witnessed miracles, and God firsthand. Thus, it would be foolish to state that they are all lying or hallucinating. As a theist, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Atheists are not required to do the same but at least must maintain a neutral position on the subject.

 

[rounder]

You're making stuff up again. I never said people who are religious need "serious help". I said people who do need serious help are much better of with a psychiatrist than religion.

I have every right to state whatever I want to state.

And you can't prove that Donald Duck isn't god anymore than I can prove these people are delusional.

Let's see, should I go to work tomorrow or sit home and maybe a suitcase full of money will appear in front of me? Gee, it's so hard to decide. They both seem very reasonable choices. But you know? In the end I'm going to pick the one that is most likely.

Should I cross the street? There's a chance I will be hit by a car. Even if I can't see, technically it could be a car traveling so fast that I wouldn't be able to see it before it comes. Or it could be an invisible car. But if I stay on this side of the road I will never accomplish anything in life. So I cross the road.

We make choices everyday that are grounded in probability. It's irrationality of the highest order to be "neutral" about god anymore than it is to be neutral about the possibility of seeing a dinosaur on your way to school.

So let me get this straight. Are you stating that you know that God does not exist and you are 100% sure?

 

[Martin]

So let me get this straight. Are you stating that you know that God does not exist and you are 100% sure?

Yes.

 

[rounder]

Yes.

It's been a pleasure debating with you but you have made things much easier for me. I firmly believe that any person that has half a brain would not claim to know God does not exist 100%, no offense. You're a good guy but saying something like this lacks the slightest hint of intelligence. I thought you were better than that.

 

[DelpieroForLife]

Yes.

I'm pretty sure you have good explanation then for who/how/when/where started the Big Bang.

 

[Martin]

It's been a pleasure debating with you but you have made things much easier for me. I firmly believe that any person that has half a brain would not claim to know God does not exist 100%, no offense. You're a good guy but saying something like this lacks the slightest hint of intelligence. I thought you were better than that.

We've been over this before. God is a logical impossibility therefore there is no need to answer the question of believing or not believing. It's simply not possible.

 

[Martin]

I'm pretty sure you have good explanation then for who/how/when/where started the Big Bang.

Do I?

 

[rounder]

We've been over this before. God is a logical impossibility therefore there is no need to answer the question of believing or not believing. It's simply not possible.

Why is God a logical impossibility?

 

[Raz]

Sure, a fake experience is a hallucination. A real one is not. Since I have never experienced either firsthand, I am in no position to state my opinion. But many have witnessed miracles, and God firsthand. Thus, it would be foolish to state that they are all lying or hallucinating. As a theist, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Atheists are not required to do the same but at least must maintain a neutral position on the subject.

But how do you know which ones are hallucinations and which ones are real? How do you decide on that? Medical record of the person who have seen it? You take vaticans word? Maybe doctors? what is your criteria to conclude which ones are genuine?

And if you believe that someone genuinely saw god, doesnt that make you 100% believer?

 

[Martin]

Why is God a logical impossibility?

God cannot even be defined. Ask someone (as I did in this thread) to describe the god they believe in and I didn't get a single answer. These people claim to believe in something but they can't tell you what. They have no idea what they believe in. And so what is the meaning of believing in something about which you can know nothing? That's logically impossible. I can only believe something if I can first understand what it is I'm supposed to believe in.

If I ask you "do you believe in X?". And you say "what is X?". And I say "We can never know what X is, X is beyond human understanding". Would you then say "I believe in X"?

 

[DelpieroForLife]

Do I?

You have too... you are 100% sure no Supernatural/God created universe so you should provide explanation which prove 0% possibility of God existence.