What is your god like? (8 Viewers)

[Martin]

Definitely. If you have two people 2000 dollars each, the first is the son of a very wealthy senator and has never had any financial woes, while the second is a troubled orphan who has had to work his entire life just to get by, who do you think will be happier?

Nevermind the analogies. We have learned something. The key to happiness is suffering. Let's put this into practice as soon as possible, let's assume that you want to be as happy as possible. And let's assume that you suffer when Seven attacks something you care about. So you want him to make you suffer as much as possible.

I agree, I don't have any problem when Seven throws insults at me. It's understandable that people tend to attack the person instead of the idea, this is mainly due to the fact that Seven may lack the intellectual capabilities of attacking my opinion as well as he would have liked

However, I don't accept people who have had genuine experiences with God be called names. This is childish and ignorant to say the least. Perhaps one day you may be one of these people, who knows. And as the golden rule goes, treat others as you yourself want to be treated.

I don't think Seven lives by the golden rule.

 

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[rounder]

Religion comes from religious people. If Jesus had lived and noone took him seriously there would no Christianity. So "religion" is basically the sum product of what religious people do.

I thought you were referring to religious people now. Technically, at the time of christ they weren't religious people. Religion wasn't even born yet. However, yes they were responsible for religion, and conveying these messages obnoxiously were necessary as I mentioned earlier. Considering these religious people had first hand accounts with Jesus.

 

[Martin]

I thought you were referring to religious people now. Technically, at the time of christ they weren't religious people. Religion wasn't even born yet. However, yes they were responsible for religion, and conveying these messages obnoxiously were necessary as I mentioned earlier. Considering these religious people had first hand accounts with Jesus.

So now obnoxiousness can be necessary? Maybe that's what Seven is doing?

 

[rounder]

Nevermind the analogies. We have learned something. The key to happiness is suffering. Let's put this into practice as soon as possible, let's assume that you want to be as happy as possible. And let's assume that you suffer when Seven attacks something you care about. So you want him to make you suffer as much as possible.

But I don't suffer when Seven attacks something I care about. I'll help you out here, If I wanted top achieve maximum satisfaction and happiness, then I would probably find ways of suffering before indulging in what I used to think was a rather mundane activity. I will then be more appreciative and a lot more happier than I was prior to my suffering, absolutely,

Do you disagree?

 

[rounder]

So now obnoxiousness can be necessary? Maybe that's what Seven is doing?

Forgive my rudeness but I doubt Seven's message will have as much impact as God's not to mention importance. So no, he doesn't have to be obnoxious to get his point accross. Anyone can be obnoxious, it's just not classy, and I'm all about class. :flag1:

 

[Martin]

But I don't suffer when Seven attacks something I care about. I'll help you out here, If I wanted top achieve maximum satisfaction and happiness, then I would probably find ways of suffering before indulging in what I used to think was a rather mundane activity. I will then be more appreciative and a lot more happier than I was prior to my suffering, absolutely,

Do you disagree?

So why don't you do that? Don't you want too be happy? Or don't you believe in your own knowledge?

 

[Martin]

Forgive my rudeness but I doubt Seven's message will have as much impact as God's not to mention importance. So no, he doesn't have to be obnoxious to get his point accross. Anyone can be obnoxious, it's just not classy, and I'm all about class. :flag1:

So people with something important to say can be obnoxious. Who decides which person has an important message?

 

[rounder]

So why don't you do that? Don't you want too be happy? Or don't you believe in your own knowledge?

Who says I don't do that?

Perhaps because it is part of my nature to pass on suffering and instead settle on being a little happy than very happy. Also, causing suffering to oneself although may increase pleasure substantially can also lead to irrepairable physical and emotional damage.

 

[Martin]

Who says I don't do that?

Perhaps because it is part of my nature to pass on suffering and instead settle on being a little happy than very happy. Also, causing suffering to oneself although may increase pleasure substantially can also lead to irrepairable physical and emotional damage.

This is most interesting. You know why? Because it's exactly what I suggested god should have done. But you didn't agree with me. Turns out you agree entirely.

 

[rounder]

So people with something important to say can be obnoxious. Who decides which person has an important message?

If your are conveying the message of God, then yes you can be obnoxious. If you are just being obnoxious for the same of provoking someone, then you don't have to be obnoxious.

No one decides which person has an important message. I am just giving you my personal opinion. I think I'm entitled to that, yes?

 

[rounder]

This is most interesting. You know why? Because it's exactly what I suggested god should have done. But you didn't agree with me. Turns out you agree entirely.

Free will is in question again here. What if I am a different person and actually prefered suffering. I personally know people who cut themselves for pleasure.

Just because you and I agree with having a different balance of suffering does not imply everyone feels this way. In fact, many people would not stand a life without pain.

 

[Martin]

If your are conveying the message of God, then yes you can be obnoxious. If you are just being obnoxious for the same of provoking someone, then you don't have to be obnoxious.

No one decides which person has an important message. I am just giving you my personal opinion. I think I'm entitled to that, yes?

At least we have that straightened out. But I don't agree with your special treatment for some people and not others.

 

[Martin]

Free will is in question again here. What if I am a different person and actually prefered suffering. I personally know people who cut themselves for pleasure.

Just because you and I agree with having a different balance of suffering does not imply everyone feels this way. In fact, many people would not stand a life without pain.

But this is not about free will. People get killed in traffic, killed by natural disasters, they get incurable diseases and they get persecuted for the color of their skin or origin. None of this has anything to do with choice. If you what you say is true, that people choose how much they want to suffer, because that determines their happiness, then this is the exact OPPOSITE of choice. God has already chosen FOR them.

So I ask you: why is he depriving these people of free will?

 

[rounder]

But this is not about free will. People get killed in traffic, killed by natural disasters, they get incurable diseases and they get persecuted for the color of their skin or origin. None of this has anything to do with choice. If you what you say is true, that people choose how much they want to suffer, because that determines their happiness, then this is the exact OPPOSITE of choice. God has already chosen FOR them.

So I ask you: why is he depriving these people of free will?

This is where faith comes in to be quite frank. Religious people with physical or mental disabilities will resort to having faith in what Jesus and the Bible promises. That heaven is for the weak. They believe that they are promised a better life in heaven, and that their suffering will go away once they accept God.

The Bible offers those hard done by hope, and hope is a beautiful thing. Some people fail to realize the importance of religion in the sense that it instills hope for those who have suffered greatly in this lifetime. How cruel and harsh would life be if all these tortured souls were never given a better life. Those slaves persecuted because of the colour of their skin never given another chance.

To answer your question, you would have to believe in God and trust in his will, otherwise, He would seem like a demonic creature that kills innocent lives for pleasure. I don't believe this is so, I believe in the afterlife and that all those people who have had tragic lives will experience something far greater than what earth has to offer.

 

[rounder]

I'd like to ask you a question.

If God did not exist, and heaven was all just an illusion.

Do you think life would have any objective meaning?

 

[Martin]

Rationalization, man. Face it.

Stop deluding yourself about the infallibility of man and you'll understand how this works.

 

[Martin]

I'd like to ask you a question.

If God did not exist, and heaven was all just an illusion.

Do you think life would have any objective meaning?

Given the grave doubts over your understanding of the word "objective" I don't think I can answer that

But I'll tell you anyway. Life doesn't need objective meaning. It's perfectly sufficient for each individual to figure out what his own life means to him.

 

[Seven]

This is where faith comes in to be quite frank. Religious people with physical or mental disabilities will resort to having faith in what Jesus and the Bible promises. That heaven is for the weak. They believe that they are promised a better life in heaven, and that their suffering will go away once they accept God.

The Bible offers those hard done by hope, and hope is a beautiful thing. Some people fail to realize the importance of religion in the sense that it instills hope for those who have suffered greatly in this lifetime. How cruel and harsh would life be if all these tortured souls were never given a better life. Those slaves persecuted because of the colour of their skin never given another chance.

To answer your question, you would have to believe in God and trust in his will, otherwise, He would seem like a demonic creature that kills innocent lives for pleasure. I don't believe this is so, I believe in the afterlife and that all those people who have had tragic lives will experience something far greater than what earth has to offer.

Exactly. That is why you hope there is something out there. That's what your entire theory stands or falls with: Hope.

 

[Seven]

I'm glad you said that. Because it means that God, who is not natural, cannot cause anything.

I'm on your side here Martin, but this is sophistic .

Supernatural is not imaginary, you just think it is imaginary. To millions of people around the world, the supernatural cannot be any more real.

Oh, I do care about suffering. Your questions seem a little silly though to be quite honest. Natural beauty and natural disasters don't work like a chemical equation, there doesn't have to be complete balance.

I will not be arrogant to claim that I know the mind of God, I am just postulating possible explanations, ones that seem viable and rational.

Problem is that Poseidon is just as imaginary as God. So is Bugs Bunny in fact. You can't have a rational theory based on this principle, JR.

 

[rounder]

Given the grave doubts over your understanding of the word "objective" I don't think I can answer that

But I'll tell you anyway. Life doesn't need objective meaning. It's perfectly sufficient for each individual to figure out what his own life means to him.

You aren't going to let it go, are you?

What would you say to the countless people who have never experienced anything but pain and sorrow? Tough luck?

Indeed, when theists are asked about why God has allowed destruction, taking the Bible's world that justice will be served and those who have been hard done by will experience the freedom and happiness they deserve.

I'd like to know the atheistic perspective on this. What consolation do you for that boy that got raped by his father before being brutally mudered?